Should Viewers Be Able to Call in Rules Violations

[sean_miller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Allow me to sum up this (and the Paddy-specific) thread

Point: Viewers should be able to call in infractions.

Counterpoint: No they shouldn't, because some lazy couch-sitting cheetos-eatin' high-handicapper bastard shouldn't affect the outcome of a professional tournament!

Point: So you're ok with someone getting away with a rule infraction simply because an official at the scene didn’t see it?

Counterpoint [Ok, I better change my argument]: Well they shouldn't be DQ'd over one, that's for sure!

Point: Even though any DQ is easily avoidable by simply knowing the basic rules and following well estabished procedures (consulting with an RO, for example) that 99.99% of the golfers 99.99% of the time know to do?

Counterpoint [Oops, better change my argument again]: Well it shouldn't be illegal to nudge the ball a bit when it's in play, because no one ever puts their ball back exactly where they marked it anyway!

Point: So you want to make it legal in the rules of golf to nudge the ball to a different position even though it means the guy you're playing the tournament against this weekend can now use that technique to get around an imperfection in the green?

Counterpoint: But they can already do that by putting it in a different position when they place it!

Point: Uh, actually the guy who is on suspension right now is proof that you *can't* get away with that.

Counterpoint: ---sounds of crickets chirping---

Someone (Hi Sean) please correct me if I have anything wrong.

...sooooo are you telling me that rules infractions don't happen in any other sport? that missed calls even ones done innocently and unnoticed by participants doesnt happen in every single sport?

so if they allow those games and outings to move on unhindered why does golf alone...allow a cheesie eating goofball to determine the outcome of a game when every single other sport...i repeat...every...other sport...does not allow this behaviour?

or are you trying to enable those that lift their noses at golf and claim its not a sport? i guess you are. because all other sports would never allow this nonsence.

Are you insinuating I called the people calling in all those names? Are you suggesting that Saltman was placing his ball approximately 1 - 3 dimples away from its original location? Are you suggesting that I (and many other posters) are against video itself and not the fact all video should be reviewed, not just the video that makes it onto the broadcast, but all the video taken at the entire event, and that even more video should be captured in order to scrutinize all players equally and that it should all be done by people associated with the PGA Tour event in a timely manner?

Are you suggesting that I've actually changed my opinion from the very first one I posted in this thread on page 1?

Wrongness.

[max power]

The comparison to other sports is the weakest argument you can make.  A basic understanding of a golf tournament vs. just about everything else on TV makes it clear that golf has very little in common.  Golf is played simultaneously by dozens of different players at the same time, on completely different holes/locations, on a "playing field" that is always different from week to week and occupies a space many magnitudes larger than every other sport.  Golfers are responsible for knowing every rule and calling infractions on themselves when they occur vs. the "if you ain't cheating you ain't trying" mentality of every other popular sport.

It's an irrelevant argument.

Originally Posted by sharkhark

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

...so why golf? why does every other sport have officials to watch the game and to step in if needed and golf is the only one that lets people call in.

Asked and answered several times in this thread.

...answered poorly.........if you ask me 2+2 and i answer 5.....its still an answer....a poorly one....but still an answer....skipping my main point....soccer allows people to call in? no....baseball...no....hockey...no...football...no....lacrosse...no...figure skating...no...skeet shooting...no....naked volleyball...no....bowling...no...

golf? yes.....makes zippo sense

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Are you insinuating I called the people calling in all those names? Are you suggesting that Saltman was placing his ball approximately 1 - 3 dimples away from its original location? Are you suggesting that I (and many other posters) are against video itself and not the fact all video should be reviewed, not just the video that makes it onto the broadcast, but all the video taken at the entire event, and that even more video should be captured in order to scrutinize all players equally and that it should all be done by people associated with the PGA Tour event in a timely manner?

Are you suggesting that I've actually changed my opinion from the very first one I posted in this thread on page 1?

Wrongness.

Re name calling: I said I was recapping the *threads* Sean, not your individual posts. Geez, what an ego.

Re dimples: I agree, Saltzman placed his ball more than 1-3 dimples away. Is your argument that Paddy should be given a pass because his ball moved less than Salzman's moved his? Ok then, where do you draw the line where it's legal vs illegal? 5 dimples? Half a ball? How about, instead of picking an arbitrary line, if we have players who *know* their ball moved *at all* consult with an RO before moving on. What's your problem with that process?

Re video:  Sure, having all that video and all those people to scrutinize it real time would be great. But we don't have that. What we have now are home viewers. And nothing they call in can or will be acted upon unless someone official looks at the video. What's your problem with that process? How is that different than what you're suggesting? How does the viewer being at home, vs being some volunteer in a TV truck outside the ropes, make what the player did *less* illegal?

Re changing your opinon: No, you haven't changed your opinion (in spite of overwhelming logical reasons to do so). When I wrote "better change my argument" in my recap I meant it as an allegory to how there are several arguments in this thread against letting viewers call in, and new ones kept cropping up as the old ones were shown to be illogical.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sharkhark

every time i bring up the fact that no other sport does it...people are unable to adquately explain why golf does.

Adequately according to whom?

Players are responsible for knowing and enforcing the rules. Rules Officials are there as a resource, not to call penalties on players.

That's a perfectly adequate - and correct - answer.

[max power]

This is the crux of the matter.  No at-home TV viewer is "making a call."

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Re video:  Sure, having all that video and all those people to scrutinize it real time would be great. But we don't have that. What we have now are home viewers. And nothing they call in can or will be acted upon unless someone official looks at the video. What's your problem with that process? How is that different than what you're suggesting? How does the viewer being at home, vs being some volunteer in a TV truck outside the ropes, make what the player did *less* illegal?

[sean_miller]

I believe it is the crux of the matter as well. That's why I voted no in the first place. Any argument that discounts the fact the best players are under more scrutiny is flawed. Maybe it's just opinion either way, but that's what polls are for.

Quote:

This is the crux of the matter.  No at-home TV viewer is "making a call."

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Re video:  Sure, having all that video and all those people to scrutinize it real time would be great. But we don't have that. What we have now are home viewers. And nothing they call in can or will be acted upon unless someone official looks at the video. What's your problem with that process? How is that different than what you're suggesting? How does the viewer being at home, vs being some volunteer in a TV truck outside the ropes, make what the player did *less* illegal?

[max power]

How is that unfair in the context of golf?  The players are expected to know all the rules and to follow them accordingly, whether they're on TV or not.  So it unfairly makes it harder for the leaders to cheat?

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I believe it is the crux of the matter as well. That's why I voted no in the first place. Any argument that discounts the fact the best players are under more scrutiny is flawed. Maybe it's just opinion either way, but that's what polls are for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by max power

This is the crux of the matter.  No at-home TV viewer is "making a call."

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Re video:  Sure, having all that video and all those people to scrutinize it real time would be great. But we don't have that. What we have now are home viewers. And nothing they call in can or will be acted upon unless someone official looks at the video. What's your problem with that process? How is that different than what you're suggesting? How does the viewer being at home, vs being some volunteer in a TV truck outside the ropes, make what the player did *less* illegal?

[sean_miller]

If you want to twist it that way, sure.

Originally Posted by max power

How is that unfair in the context of golf?  The players are expected to know all the rules and to follow them accordingly, whether they're on TV or not.  So it unfairly makes it harder for the leaders to cheat?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I believe it is the crux of the matter as well. That's why I voted no in the first place. Any argument that discounts the fact the best players are under more scrutiny is flawed. Maybe it's just opinion either way, but that's what polls are for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by max power

This is the crux of the matter.  No at-home TV viewer is "making a call."

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Re video:  Sure, having all that video and all those people to scrutinize it real time would be great. But we don't have that. What we have now are home viewers. And nothing they call in can or will be acted upon unless someone official looks at the video. What's your problem with that process? How is that different than what you're suggesting? How does the viewer being at home, vs being some volunteer in a TV truck outside the ropes, make what the player did *less* illegal?

[sacm3bill]

You've only addressed the "twisted" part. You still haven't told us why you think it's unfair.

Note that Tiger and Phil get the most screen time yet they've rarely (ever?) been the subject of a rules violation. That's because it's *really* easy to not be the subject of a rules violation.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If you want to twist it that way, sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by max power

How is that unfair in the context of golf?  The players are expected to know all the rules and to follow them accordingly, whether they're on TV or not.  So it unfairly makes it harder for the leaders to cheat?

[BigMikey]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

every time i bring up the fact that no other sport does it...people are unable to adequately explain why golf does.

Adequately according to whom?

Players are responsible for knowing and enforcing the rules. Rules Officials are there as a resource, not to call penalties on players.

That's a perfectly adequate - and correct - answer.

Wrong.  Rules officials are more than just a resource, look at what happened to Dustin Johnson last year.  When they come up and tack on an extra two, they stop being a resource and became the enforcer.  So IMHO we don't need a second opinion as people already call the PGA and Golf channel as we evident this last week when people called into the golf channel saying Bubba Watson had moved the ball on the chip shot (17) and were raising hell.... however Golf channel confirmed after the tournament that a rules official was standing behind or in close proximity and said it didn't move.

Also here is case in point....  People already call stuff in and get people penalized and DQ'd.

http://www.pgatour.com/2011/r/01/08/villegas-ruling.ap/index.html

But pay attention to said Rules Official.

The PGA TOUR doesn't mind fans contacting them, although Rules Official Jon Brendle said 80 percent of the "tons of calls we get" turn out to be nothing . Even so, the TOUR's job is to protect the field, and if there's a violation pointed out by anyone -- another player, spectator or someone in front of the TV -- the officials check it out.

What a colossal waste of rules officials time.  If they could use that 80% they'd probably catch closer to 100% of the infractions.

My last two cents on this one would be the fact that players get DQ'd when they don't know the rules should be seriously looked at.  We should and must take into account the golfers intention.  Did CV move the loose impediment because he wanted a better lie and not assess himself the penalty or was it just a nervous twitch.  If a penalty is not going to be called immediately then they player should not be DQ'd after signing his card unless they can prove he/she did so in a deceiving manner and with intent to cheat.  He or shee should simply have to resubmit the score.  How hard would that be.

[sharkhark]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

@sharkhark: Other sports have referees whose job it is to call infractions.  Golf has no such referees, only rules officials who are there to assist the players with questions. In golf, the players themselves are responsible for calling the penalties. That's part of the beauty of golf that makes it different from other sports.

There, asked and answered one more time.

you contradict yourself...you say players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves...but then you say it is ok for people at home on the couch to call in. which is it?

either players are responsible themselves...or their not..you cant have it both ways.

answer this? if i see in a replay that a player missed a tag in baseball....can i call in...after the game..or heck..during the game...and tell someone to go back and change an outcome?

your anwer:__________

if your anser to the space above...is no..then why different for golf? reason? its wrong.

no need to answer...each time you carefully answer in a way to avoid my main contentions....do any other sports allow anyone to call in and change something that is missed?

no.

you say those games have refs...ok...so why is it when they miss something i cannot call in and say hey..change game 6 of the world series as a tag was  missed...i cannot.........so if they have refs why dont they allow it?

cuz it makes no sense.

anyhow...moving on. you never answered those questions..although i notice you like to say asked and answered alot...even when you dont.......bowchickabowwow.

[max power]

Asked and answered. But seriously, asked and answered.  Why do you fail to acknowledge the myriad differences between golf and the other major sports?

Originally Posted by sharkhark

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

@sharkhark: Other sports have referees whose job it is to call infractions.  Golf has no such referees, only rules officials who are there to assist the players with questions. In golf, the players themselves are responsible for calling the penalties. That's part of the beauty of golf that makes it different from other sports.

There, asked and answered one more time.

you contradict yourself...you say players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves...but then you say it is ok for people at home on the couch to call in. which is it?

either players are responsible themselves...or their not..you cant have it both ways.

answer this? if i see in a replay that a player missed a tag in baseball....can i call in...after the game..or heck..during the game...and tell someone to go back and change an outcome?

your anwer:__________

if your anser to the space above...is no..then why different for golf? reason? its wrong.

no need to answer...each time you carefully answer in a way to avoid my main contentions....do any other sports allow anyone to call in and change something that is missed?

no.

you say those games have refs...ok...so why is it when they miss something i cannot call in and say hey..change game 6 of the world series as a tag was  missed...i cannot.........so if they have refs why dont they allow it?

cuz it makes no sense.

anyhow...moving on. you never answered those questions..although i notice you like to say asked and answered alot...even when you dont.......bowchickabowwow.

[sharkhark]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

every time i bring up the fact that no other sport does it...people are unable to adquately explain why golf does.

Adequately according to whom?

Players are responsible for knowing and enforcing the rules. Rules Officials are there as a resource, not to call penalties on players.

That's a perfectly adequate - and correct - answer.

i thought golf was a game of honesty and integrity and we police ourselves? if that is the main contention of how we differ from other sports, why is it ok to allow someone else to call in? either we agree that players police themselves....or...if you dont agree that they do and we need or allow others to influence it..then that self policing is out the window.

when i am watching a shot on tv...i only see that one guy...is it fair that there could in theory be 100 other guys who never get shown and could have done an infraction but are not recorded?

i think golf is self policing. if i play alone and nudge a ball...i know i cheated...if a player unwittingly makes a minor mistake and a rules official notices it or someone at a tourney then fine....but allowing those at home. i dont agree.

there is no point in discussions if one is not allowed to have the other side of the argument and its clear some are so into rules that they take relish in pointing out mistakes...trust me i have played with helpful people.

i have also played with those that practically dance a jig at knowing the rules inside out and pointing anything out......i only play with them once......then i move on. knowledge is helpful...taking such delight in calling in infractions is in my mind lame. that guy who claimed a month ago he did not want to push it or to boost his ego is lying. he didnt just send one email he made emails and calls a couple times over.

that is someone tooting their own horn.

even in the interviews i hear most players showing disgust at the fact people are calling in. so if the players feel that way, i agree.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by sharkhark

answer this? if i see in a replay that a player missed a tag in baseball....can i call in...after the game..or heck..during the game...and tell someone to go back and change an outcome?

your anwer:__________

if your anser to the space above...is no..then why different for golf? reason? its wrong.

Because golf isn't baseball, or football, or hockey, or basketball. In golf, an added penalty doesn't affect the current play.

To use your baseball/missed tag analogy, say there is one out and Dustin Pedroia is on first base (I'm a Red Sox fan). Keven Youkilis, the batter, hits a grounder to second, and the second baseman, Robinson Cano, picks up the ball and tries to tag Pedroia. He misses, but the second base ump calls Pedrioa out. Meanwhile Cano has thrown the ball to first and his throw beats Youkilis. That's the third out, end of the inning, and the Yankees are up. Jeter leads off and gets a hit, ARod strikes out, and then, finally, your call-in about the play on Pedroia reaches the umpires. Obviously, they can't do anything.

With golf you can add in a penalty after the round with no affect on anything.

In addition, please please please go back and read the rest of the thread.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by BigMikey

Wrong.  Rules officials are more than just a resource, look at what happened to Dustin Johnson last year.

Now you're confusing the Rules Official with The Committee. Also, Dustin took the penalty himself. If he hadn't, The Committee would have DQed him for signing an incorrect scorecard.

Originally Posted by BigMikey

Also here is case in point....  People already call stuff in and get people penalized and DQ'd.

http://www.pgatour.com/2011/r/01/08/villegas-ruling.ap/index.html

When do you think this discussion started?

Camilo broke the rules, signed an incorrect scorecard, and was DQed by the Committee. Had he called over a Rules Official after he'd flicked the loose impediments away, he'd have been informed of the two-stroke penalty, put it on his card, and not been DQed.

Originally Posted by BigMikey

We should and must take into account the golfers intention.

Absolutely not. The Rules are clear when "intent" matters.

These points have all been addressed. Go back and read through the thread.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sharkhark

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

@sharkhark: Other sports have referees whose job it is to call infractions.  Golf has no such referees, only rules officials who are there to assist the players with questions. In golf, the players themselves are responsible for calling the penalties. That's part of the beauty of golf that makes it different from other sports.

There, asked and answered one more time.

you contradict yourself...you say players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves...but then you say it is ok for people at home on the couch to call in. which is it?

either players are responsible themselves...or their not..you cant have it both ways.

Players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves. When they don't, and an official sees it, the official has the responsibility of calling it. But it's not *solely* the officials job to call it in golf, like it is in other sports.

But you think it's got to be one or the other, eh? Ok, is it *only* the players who are responsible for calling a penalty on themselves? Leaving aside the fact that the rules of golf state differently, are you saying a player who doesn''t call a penalty when they commit an infraction should get away with it even if their playing partners, an official, and 100 spectators saw it, as long as the player doesn't call it on themselves? Doesn't make much sense does it? Hmm, so then it's *only* the officials who can call penalties, I see - but wait, how is that going to work with the current state of only one rule official every 3 holes or so?  And what if a player knows he broke a rule and wants to call himself on it - I guess he can't because only an official can do it.

You sure you don't want to rethink this?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I believe it is the crux of the matter as well. That's why I voted no in the first place. Any argument that discounts the fact the best players are under more scrutiny is flawed. Maybe it's just opinion either way, but that's what polls are for.

This hasn't been discounted at all.  There are a few reasons not to let this be a major concern.  The most compelling reason is that the status quo provide the maximum protection to the field because every opportunity to ensure correct scoring is employed.  Why should the 50 or 60 or more other golfers all suffer?  Any argument that discounts this "penalty" to the field is flawed.... :-P

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves. When they don't, and an official sees it, the official has the responsibility of calling it. But it's not *solely* the officials job to call it in golf, like it is in other sports.

Correct.  In all (or virtually all) other sports, there is a team of officials who are fully responsible for these decisions.  They make every call, and their judgement is immediate and final.  If they make an error, it's unfortunate and frustrating, but because the officials are presumed to be impartial, it's accepted that such errors are part of the game and the results are allowed to stand.

In golf, the player is responsible for applying the rules correctly.  In high profile tournaments, rules officials are available, yes, but as has been pointed out repeatedly, their role is distinctly different from that of an official in other sports.  They are available as a convenience, and can essentially speak for the committee if they are asked for a ruling.  This is important, and a bit subtle, but think for a minute about what happens in your local club tournament when someone breaks a rule.  If someone sees someone breaking the rules, it's up to them to bring it up with the committee, who will then gather information and determine whether the player violated the rules and make a ruling on the dispute and applying a DQ if it is necessary.

This, incidentally, is exactly the same process that is applied in a pro event, just on a larger scale.  If a player has a question as to his procedure, he can apply the various methods available in the rules to avoid DQ and consult the committee for rulings on uncertain points before signing his card, etc.  If there's a question as to facts or events, the committee has a responsibility to investigate and enforce the rules.  Really the only difference is that there are likely to be non-players who witness events, and perhaps even videos to assist.  These non-players, by the way, don't have a vested interest in the outcome: in your local club, the guy who might cry foul is competing against you...

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

At the end of the day, what they do on the PGA Tour has no effect on my life so, whatever. Cheers

Well actually.... (  sorry, I know it seems I'm just being argumentative, but hear me out...)  It does have an affect on me or anyone else who follows the rules, whether in casual rounds or a tournament, because the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use. So if they change a rule on the Tour that makes it easier to cheat (I know Sean, we disagree on that), it makes it easier for millions of amateurs to cheat too. That's why some of us do have a vested interest in this topic.

Well actually.... It doesn't affect you as PGA Tour rules don't apply to you.  USGA rules apply to you.  While the pga tour goes by the USGA rules, they are free to make up and use their own rules(for pga tour run tournaments) which you would not be subject to.