S&T Hip Slide

[Bo the Golfer]

I am looking to see what feeling or trigger has worked for you regarding the hip slide. I am a self taught S&T;'er with lots of help from people both here and on the golf evolution site. I am a believer and feel this is the most consistant way to hit a golf ball. The problem I most have with the swing is the hip slide. When I don't think about it at all I seem to get my best contact (so maybe I've answered my own question). but I would like to know what has worked for others with this. When I try to work the hip slide I feel like I am lunging towards the ball and I certainly know I don't want that. Any help would be much appreciated.

[mvmac]

On the down swing you can feel like your belt buckle slides past the ball, the right hip lines up with the ball, left knee moves towards the target or bank the rear foot.  Banking means the right heel looks like this on the down swing, stays down and rolls onto the inner part of the right foot

[Bo the Golfer]

Great visual-thanks for the quick reply!

[JetFan1983]

Obviously by now you are familiar with this classic iacas drill:

Shockingly, it took me months of failing with this drill to realize some things I wasn't doing correctly. 1) I never realized what secondary axis tilt was i.e. that one's spine is tilting away from the target to some degree throughout the downswing, gradually increasing at and through impact. 2) This means the trail shoulder will be considerably lower than the lead shoulder to some degree.

Understanding this move allows you to maintain lag longer and with less effort, and you can hold onto the number one power accumulator longer. Iacas said in a recent post on this that a player easily throws his right arm at the ball when the shoulders are too level at impact.

The tilting of the spine away from the target is actually a move that pushes the hips more forward. You can think of it either way, I think. Dave Wedzik is adamant that the hip slide produces the secondary axis tilt though, and I'm inclined to believe him over me; but, the tilting of the spine in this manner and the right shoulder dropping downward can push the hips forward as well.

It could be a chicken vs. the egg type of a debate when talking about hip slide vs. secondary axis tilt and how they relate to each other.

Here are three photos that illustrate what I'm talking about. I'm in the top photo. This was filmed back in August -- the first day my Casio camera arrived in the mail. As you can see, my spine has almost no tilt in it whatsoever, and my shoulders are too level. My hips have not push forward much, if at all. I'm using a seven iron here.

When you're this vertical at impact with shoulders that are too level, it's impossible to get to the ball without flipping, so I'm not too concerned with the flip here in this photo of me. I believe that the flip will more or less reduce itself if I get my hips/spine/shoulders to work in the correct fashion.

This is apparently a very common problem among high handicappers.

And Erik, please correct anything stupid I said here so I don't screw up anyone's golf game including my own!

[uttexas]

Agree with the above suggestions

(All the following is written for a right handed golfer)

I've had success with feeling that my left hip moves forward throughout the swing.  Imagine a bar stool left of and below your left hip.  During the backswing, feel that you are trying to sit on the bar stool.  As you approach the top of the backswing and the transition, you will feel a lean forward onto the the left leg and push off with your right instep, and then as you transition, everything goes forward.

When I video myself doing this while hitting a ball, my pelvis stays more centered (it doesn't actually move forward until the transition. If you look at some of the Waite, Matteson and Wi videos, you can see how much their hips/pelvis moving forward in the transition.  In some of the Wi videos, it actually appears that his pelvis/hips move forward slightly in the second half of the backswing, then a lot more into the transition and forward swing.

.

[iacas]

Woohoo! I have a "classic drill" now! I have arrived! :-) J/K!

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Shockingly, it took me months of failing with this drill to realize some things I wasn't doing correctly. 1) I never realized what secondary axis tilt was i.e. that one's spine is tilting away from the target to some degree throughout the downswing, gradually increasing at and through impact. 2) This means the trail shoulder will be considerably lower than the lead shoulder to some degree.

JetFan, I know you know that, so it's not a correction but I have a clarification for others on #1. This tilting occurs because the hips go forward, not because the spine tilts away from the top (i.e. your head or chest). The tilting occurs from the bottom, at the hips.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Understanding this move allows you to maintain lag longer and with less effort, and you can hold onto the number one power accumulator longer. Iacas said in a recent post on this that a player easily throws his right arm at the ball when the shoulders are too level at impact.

Here's an image I hope will help with that a little bit. It's related to but not strictly on topic:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

The tilting of the spine away from the target is actually a move that pushes the hips more forward. You can think of it either way, I think. Dave Wedzik is adamant that the hip slide produces the secondary axis tilt though, and I'm inclined to believe him over me; but, the tilting of the spine in this manner and the right shoulder dropping downward can push the hips forward as well.

Kinda gets at my point of clarification above. If you don't push the hips forward, in order to create the necessary secondary axis tilt you're going to have to tip your upper center back , and then you're going to have a hell of a time hitting the ball first.

Are there pros that don't push the hips very far forward, and let their head fall backwards? You bet, but pros are freaks of nature and they could kick most everyone's asses playing with clubs turned upside down - that doesn't mean it's best to play golf that way.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

It could be a chicken vs. the egg type of a debate when talking about hip slide vs. secondary axis tilt and how they relate to each other.

I don't know about that. Hip slide should (again, it doesn't always - see the pros idea above) creates the secondary axis tilt.

Now, that's distinctly different than what it *feels* like. But I will say this... unless your head is going forward on the downswing, we don't tell people to move their head backwards on the downswing when their hips aren't going forward.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

When you're this vertical at impact with shoulders that are too level, it's impossible to get to the ball without flipping, so I'm not too concerned with the flip here in this photo of me. I believe that the flip will more or less reduce itself if I get my hips/spine/shoulders to work in the correct fashion.

This is apparently a very common problem among high handicappers.

And Erik, please correct anything stupid I said here so I don't screw up anyone's golf game  including my own!

Not impossible to not flip, but difficult. Camilo Villegas comes to mind: http://iacas.org/f/camilo_lack_hip_push_knee_action.jpg . That's not his impact position, but you can see that his hips aren't super forward. Camilo hits the ball fairly low, too, no surprise...

A common problem? Yes. The hips going forward are the primary way to get your weight onto the front foot, too, which is why we also see so many amateurs with their weight hanging back. They're trying to create secondary axis tilt by dropping their head back.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks a lot for clarifying everything, Erik.

[Bo the Golfer]

Thanks JetFan (can't believe I am thanking a JetFan). This was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the back up behind it Erik.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Bo the Golfer

Thanks JetFan (can't believe I am thanking a JetFan). This was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the back up behind it Erik.

I'm not sure we answered the question though. You asked "how" and we kinda discussed "why" for awhile, no?

[Bo the Golfer]

I get to the hows through the whys often in life. Everything posted has given me a great picture of how it feels and the whys of the feelings.

[mvmac]

i like Erik' s impact pic better than Tiger's

[Stretch]

Do you have to slide your lips forward to kiss that ass?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mvmac

i like Erik' s impact pic better than Tiger's

I like Tiger's bank account better than Erik's.

Awww, crap, I'm Erik.

[tm22721]

As Erik shows above, the 'position to hit' is as far forward and rotated as possible.......in balance.

Use this drill to challenge you to get there and also help you feel THE position.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tm22721

As Erik shows above, the 'position to hit' is as far forward and rotated as possible.......in balance.

Not really rotated - I'm not a big fan of the hips "facing the target at impact" or anything like that. I'd prefer them to be 15, maybe 20 or 25 degrees open at the most, and sometimes a bit less.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm22721

As Erik shows above, the 'position to hit' is as far forward and rotated as possible.......in balance.

Not really rotated - I'm not a big fan of the hips "facing the target at impact" or anything like that. I'd prefer them to be 15, maybe 20 or 25 degrees open at the most, and sometimes a bit less.

I agree with that.  During the NBC and CBS PGA broadcasts, Peter Kostis always talks about how open or how much the "hips are facing the target" at impact when they do their swing vision analysis and I find it as bad advice for a high or mid capper to try and emulate.  Attempting the rotate the hips "at impact" gets people spinning like a top at the feet vs. MOVING forward on the downswing.

As you say, 15degrees or so is perfect as more energy should be put into moving forwards vs. "worrying about" opening the hips.  The hips will open naturally after impact as the swing moves up and around to it's completion.

[tm22721]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm22721

As Erik shows above, the 'position to hit' is as far forward and rotated as possible.......in balance.

Not really rotated - I'm not a big fan of the hips "facing the target at impact" or anything like that. I'd prefer them to be 15, maybe 20 or 25 degrees open at the most, and sometimes a bit less.

Agreed there is less rotation with the typical crossover release because the core stalls as the club is thrown down the line. But if you have a body type release (ie Hogan)  the core and the club continue to rotate and the hips open up a lot more.

[Bo the Golfer]

Originally Posted by tm22721

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm22721

As Erik shows above, the 'position to hit' is as far forward and rotated as possible.......in balance.

Not really rotated - I'm not a big fan of the hips "facing the target at impact" or anything like that. I'd prefer them to be 15, maybe 20 or 25 degrees open at the most, and sometimes a bit less.

Agreed there is less rotation with the typical crossover release because the core stalls as the club is thrown down the line. But if you have a body type release (ie Hogan)  the core and the club continue to rotate and the hips open up a lot more.

But Erik was talking about impact not where the hips are facing as they go on through.