Why do the pros dip their heads down during the backswing (and how do they not hit the ball fat)?

[busterblue2]

Just watched some BizHub slo-mo videos of Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson and Ricky Fowler - noted that they each dip their heads down (i.e., tilting their spine angles toward the ball) during the backswing, contrary to the old mantra of keeping your head still.  I was wondering what they are doing in the downswing to compensate for the lowered spine angle to prevent hitting the ball fat - clearing the hips and rotating their left shoulders up through impact?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by busterblue2

Just watched some BizHub slo-mo videos of Bubba Watson, Dustin Johnson and Ricky Fowler - noted that they each dip their heads down (i.e., tilting their spine angles toward the ball) during the backswing, contrary to the old mantra of keeping your head still.  I was wondering what they are doing in the downswing to compensate for the lowered spine angle to prevent hitting the ball fat - clearing the hips and rotating their left shoulders up through impact?

A lot here: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/41932/ground-reactive-forces-and-jumping-for-power

[busterblue2]

Thanks for the link - great stuff.  So many things going on in the golf swing and in the mind - no wonder this is a great game!

[busterblue2]

Here are some sequential DTL views from a YouTube video of DJ by the SF Golf Performance Center.  I superimposed circles (for head position) and lines (for spine angle) over each of the frames to show relative positions.  It looks like DJ drops his head and squats down during the backswing and transition, but I can't detect any "jumping" up since DJ's head position stays below address (and below where it was at the top of his backswing [yellow circle]) through impact.

Dj's left shoulder moves up at impact, while his heads stays down - how can an amateur copy this move?

[busterblue2]

[iacas]

Originally Posted by busterblue2

I can't detect any "jumping" up since DJ's head position stays below address (and below where it was at the top of his backswing [yellow circle]) through impact.

That's not what we mean by jumping. Jumping is the thrusting up and forward of the hips, straightening of the left knee, etc.

[Keep It Simple]

If you still have lag at impact then the distance from your swing center to the clubhead is shorter than it was at address.  Dipping downwards compensates for this change.  That is why their head position stays down (and doesn't pop back up) through impact.  Dustin Johnson is the best example of retaining lag.

[gmbtempe]

I see these guys go down, and then down some more.  I think most people, at least pretty decent players, do down into impact from the top but why do players raise up in the backswing, is there a common link to why that happens?

[chrisutpg]

Originally Posted by Keep It Simple

If you still have lag at impact then the distance from your swing center to the clubhead is shorter than it was at address.  Dipping downwards compensates for this change.  That is why their head position stays down (and doesn't pop back up) through impact.  Dustin Johnson is the best example of retaining lag.

Hit the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

I see these guys go down, and then down some more.  I think most people, at least pretty decent players, do down into impact from the top but why do players raise up in the backswing, is there a common link to why that happens?

These guys (pros) only dip down on the forward swing or downswing. There height to the top of the backswing remains pretty much unchanged. As they dip down lower to the ground on the downswing, the club as lag, and is thus a bit shorter. So they do not hit the ball fat.

Most ammutures dip there heads lower on the backswing, and raise up coming into impact and lose that lag. If you are getting taller on the back swing, you are probably losing flex in the knees, or spine. Height should remain unchanged up to the top of the back swing.

[busterblue2]

As an amateur who is trying to stop lifting up and changing my spine angle during the backswing, then dipping down during the downswing (resulting in either too steep an angle of attack or hitting irons fat occasionally), I am really trying hard to mimic Dustin Johnson's relative spine angle positions.  Man he hits the ball a ton without any apparent effort!

While I appreciate the comments above, I do not understand what is meant by having lag at impact.  I thought the proper position at impact was to have a straight line from the left shoulder through the clubhead at and immediately past impact to make sure you are achieving maximum speed through the ball.  If he still had lag at impact, wouldn't that mean that he has not yet fully extended his arms and released the clubhead yet?

[tshapiro]

Personally, I don't think it has much to do with lag but rather the coil that is created during the backswing and maintained if not increased through impact. To demonstrate, start twisting a towel and you'll see how it shortens as the fibers wrap around each other in a coiling shape. It is this coiling that also helps a better golfer be in position to strike the inside portion of a golf ball. All the great coilers get real low... Ie Natalie Gulbis

[Keep It Simple]

Originally Posted by busterblue2

While I appreciate the comments above, I do not understand what is meant by having lag at impact.  I thought the proper position at impact was to have a straight line from the left shoulder through the clubhead at and immediately past impact to make sure you are achieving maximum speed through the ball.  If he still had lag at impact, wouldn't that mean that he has not yet fully extended his arms and released the clubhead yet?

You can see the lag just before and even well after impact in the pics below.

[saevel25]

Keeping the head still is really only in the downswing. There are some bad movements in backswing, like lifting your head up, usually caused by overswinging.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Keep It Simple

You can see the lag just before and even well after impact in the pics below.

Now there is some power...great pics!

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by chrisutpg

These guys (pros) only dip down on the forward swing or downswing. There height to the top of the backswing remains pretty much unchanged. As they dip down lower to the ground on the downswing, the club as lag, and is thus a bit shorter. So they do not hit the ball fat.

Most ammutures dip there heads lower on the backswing, and raise up coming into impact and lose that lag. If you are getting taller on the back swing, you are probably losing flex in the knees, or spine. Height should remain unchanged up to the top of the back swing.

I think this is all wrong.  The OP is right, that a lot of pros heads lower on the way back.  That's what Hogan's did and all of the other players he mentioned.  Most improving amateurs lose some spine angle on the backswing due to poor flexibility and an inability to load into the right side.  They aren't hitting with lag, so they don't need to get even lower on the downswing.  Their brain tells them to raise up a little and let the hips thrust in towards the ball in a misguided attempt at getting power.

[bunkerputt]

Man.  Dustin has some pretty sick flexibility.  I don't suggest mere mortals copy that swing without expecting a lot of heartbreak.  I remember seeing him for the first time on TV from a camera downrange and thought, that guy's incredibly flexible.

[Zeph]

Many pros dip a little, but it doesn't matter as long as you hit the ball first. Additionally, the arms are connected to your shoulders, not the head. Look at down the line swings how the head has lowered towards the shoulders, but the shoulders has not dropped as much.

The shoulders are also tilted right at impact. Lowpoint is pretty much around the left shoulder on a good swing, and if you draw some lines you'll see that the left shoulder is most of the time higher at impact than it was at address.

Tiger dips a lot, but once he gets to P5, he starts extending. The head doesn't move a lot from there to impact, but the upper center moves up again and the left shoulder even higher.