We're not worried about etiquette today

[foreleft]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

IMHO, turtleback, you handled it right.  That guy had an obligation to teach these kids the correct way to play.  It's not just about etiquette, it's also a matter of safety.  These kids exposed themselves to unnecessary risks in several instances you described simply by being ignorant.  There's a reason why the player away hits first (unless the group is solid enough in knowledge & common sense to play 'ready' golf).  There's a reason you clear the green, to the rear or side, ASAP and write your scores down, grab a slug of your drink, etc. on the next tee box.  There's a reason you don't leave a player in your group back 175 yds looking for his ball in the woods while the rest of the group is putting on the green.  There's a reason why slower groups should let faster groups through when there is open real estate in front of them.

Those were all teaching moments, and the HS 'advisor' failed miserably.

I also fault the golf course's management.  It's not rocket science to determine a fivesome is playing against course rules.  If management condoned the fivesome, then they also should have instructed them to let faster players/groups through.  It's also not difficult to send a ranger around the course every half hour or so to make sure groups are on expected pace-to-play.  A golf course is like a two lane highway with no passing zones.  It only takes one slow-play group to back up an entire course where it actually costs the course money in lower revenues.  It's up to the rangers to determine where the bottlenecks are occurring and direct traffic when necessary.  That means being proactive and keeping at least a loose tracking of how the pace of play is going overall.

Slow play and lack of etiquette will be the death of this game IMHO.

Agreed!!

[John King]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

Maybe he's the guy wearing flip flops or jeans and a t-shirt??? Hahaha

I resemble that qoute sometimes LOL! , but I at least know common courtesy and etiquette on the golf course.

[zeg]

Agree with the OP's approach.  Basic etiquette is the easy part, and some of what he described wasn't etiquette, it was safety.  If you're not prepared with the basics of etiquette, you are not ready to go on the course, period.  It's one thing to make mistakes, it's another to go out there without a clue or making a good faith effort to get one.  When something like that happens, I think a gentle correction to the teacher is in order.  Who knows, he got huffy, but most of us tend to get huffy when we're told we've done something wrong, especially if there are kids we're supposed to be teaching around.  Maybe when he cools down he'll think about it and correct his and the kids' behavior next time.

Also, I wonder why golf courses don't do more to teach the basic etiquette.  It seems like doing an occasional free beginner's etiquette lesson would be something that could be worthwhile.  I can certainly see for a beginner who comes from a circle where no one else is golfing that it can be difficult to learn the ropes.  A lot of it is obvious if you've been out a lot, but when you don't really know the flow of the game, some of it is not so intuitive.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Mid-40's.  Old enough to know better.

Maybe you should volunteer to teach kids golf etiquette.

[BostonSully]

I agree with the OP's reaction.

Having worked on a golf course for 5 years before, I can say that I saw that many many players display poor-no etiquette at all. When you've worked on a course and you see someone drop their wedge or putter 3-4ft onto the green you dont think "that was classless" you cringe and go "uggh that'll rip up when the mower hits it".

I havent worked on a course for years now but I still get the same instinctual reactions and I focus on etiquette as much as possible. When i observe other groups displaying poor on course behavior it may irk me slightly and I may go around and repair their divots and etc... But I will not say something..

That is unless they start to do something dangerous like the OP described and running out onto the fairway from the woods while your hitting, thats not bad etiquette its dangerous unacceptable behavior.

[Topper]

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't think the OP's handling of the play-through situation was completely Kosher.  I see this type of non-confrontational behavior at work all the time where I work with a number of people (especially managers) who often don't address an issue directly but will "poke around the edges" in ways that are not all that constructive.  One of my HR managers refers to this as passive-aggressive behavior.

Although the group should have offered to let you play through, golf etiquette doesn't prevent you from politely asking.  You would have been doing yourself and them a favor by politely asking to play through unless it really wasn't an issue to follow them.  If he let you, then everyone is happy and the kids can experience a good learning moment.  If your request is refused (unlikely), then you can file a complaint with course management and let course management talk to them about course etiquette.  Snide remarks to the adult who is escorting a group of kids is not a constructive or mature way to handle it especially after being complemented for what the group's adult thought was your patience but was actually your fear of making a reasonable request to play through.

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I had a strange occurrence the other day.  I went out after school (I'm a teacher) to get in a quick 9 holes.  I was walking.  They sent me off the back nine and for about 4 holes it was clear sailing.  Then I came up on a group of 5 HS kids (playing & walking) and a male adult (not playing).  There was no one in front of them.  The kids had no clue about basic golf course behavior and the adult wasn't doing anything to enlighten them.  They would leave their club on the wrong side of the green and then run across the green to get it.  They had several opportunities to let me play through and never did.  Not even after I picked up a driver that one of them had left on the tee and returned it to them on the next hole.  On one hole the group was up by the green when I teed off (at this point I was waiting a little bit before teeing off so I wouldn't have to wait, stewing, in the fairway).  I hit my drive and as I was walking up I see one of them about 175 yards back from the green walking out of the trees, right where my drive could have killed him?!?!  On another hole they didn't put the flagstick back in when they left the green and then one of them ran back from the next tee to put it in  - right as I'm playing my approach shot.

I wasn't going to say anything, being a non-confrontational kind of guy, but as I walked off the last hole I walked past the adult and he made a comment to the effect of "Thanks for being patient with us."  I replied, "It is nice to take these kids out to teach them how to play but you really should include basic golf etiquette."  To which he said "Oh, we're just getting them out there - we're not concerned about etiquette today."  To which I replied "This is golf - proper etiquette is intrinsic to the game."  And then this guy got all huffy with me.  So I just walked away.

Sheesh!!  Just what we need - kids who are new to the game being taught to be the jerks of the future.  When I took my friends out (I was the first to play golf) - when I took my Dad out - when I took my kids out - when I took my wife out - the first thing I did was make sure they knew the do's and don'ts of how to act on a golf course.

Come to find out this guy is a HS teacher and the faculty adviser for the golf club at one of the local HSs and this was an outing of the golf club.  It made me ashamed to be a teacher.

After re-reading your post, it appears to me that the "coach" was trying to be courteous by acknowledging that his students may not have been following the proper decorum governing on-course golf behavior.  Hence, he thanked you for your patience.  This does not assume that he actually knows what the proper decorum is.  It could've been just a blanket statement.  Also, it was he that initiated the olive branch to you by speaking first, so he may or may not be the jerk that he appears to be.

Another consideration is that you may have been a little irritated and it may have showed up in your tone when you spoke to the coach.  By your own admission, you weren't waved through, they left equipment all over the place and they ran around the greens like a Chinese Fire Drill.  Nonetheless, while it's unfortunate that the ensuing conversation turned negative, IMO, there may be a window of opportunity to, as they say, "make lemonade from lemons"...

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Maybe you should volunteer to teach kids golf etiquette.

This.

As you stated, the coach is a fellow teacher at a local HS, so you have his contact information.  Give him a call and explain to him that your comments to him weren't meant to be derrogatory.  Rather, golf etiquette exists to preserve the enjoyment and the safety of all players participating, so it is as important as the golf swing itself--not to mention, a heck of a lot easier to learn.  At that point, you could suggest to him that you'd be willing to give him some guidance in this area (whether it's just advisory to him and he passes it along to the students, or you actively interact with the students directly--your call).  If he declines, then you did what you could.  If he accepts, then you may find this to be one of the more rewarding experiences of golf.

However, if you choose not to call him--at it's perfectly fine if you don't, then to a certain degree, you become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

[golf4fun12]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Mid-40's.  Old enough to know better.

yeah, he should know better for sure. no excuses. unless, he is also new to golf and doesn't know any better. he could just be a guy who was assigned this. or volunteered for this for the extra cash.

[tanktwo2]

Usually if it is late in the day a lot more people who are very new are out there smacking balls around.  Seems like if it just happened that once you are over-reacting a little bit.  It isn't like they were yelling around screaming and it was late in the day well after a golf courses peak times.

I agree though...the adult advising them needs to be an adult and tell them how to properly act on a golf course.

[Brad_MB]

I believe that etiquette has diminished not only in golf, but in society as a whole.  To the OP's comment, the coach should have handled his students and situation in a better way.  New people need to to be educated, and educate themselves on how to compose themselves on the course.  I'm relatively new to golf, and admittedly I made some mistakes that others (even complete strangers) made me aware of, and of which I was thankful for.  Some people see this as an offensive action, but really its only for every golfers best interest.  Its just not a matter of following formalities, but also a huge matter of safety.

The younger you can teach and educate someone, the more apt they will take that information with themselves for life.

What kills me is how many adults have no common sense whatsoever.  And this is coming for a 23 year old.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

However, if you choose not to call him--at it's perfectly fine if you don't, then to a certain degree, you become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

I kind of get what you are saying, but I'm struggling to wrap my head around this.  It sounds pithy and chic, but I don't know that it necessarily passes muster in the logic department.  If the OP is part of the 'problem', then it implies he is somehow contributing to these young players' lack of etiquette and safety on the course.  I'm not convinced it's the OP's responsibility to do so (correct their actions, that is).  Yeah, following up with a phone call may be a noble thing to do, but IMHO the reality is - it's the school's responsibility (the school who hired the advisor of their Golf Club) to either hire someone who knows that part of the game or, if he doesn't, make sure he's willing to learn it and then impart it on the kids.

The OP made his point to the advisor.  Whether or not it was done appropriately, I suppose, can be argued (I happen to think it was).  But point being - he did speak up and address a problem.  I don't believe it's necessary for him to follow up further to avoid being 'part of the problem'.  JMHO

[allin]

I would mention one situation which I do not let singles play through.  Sometimes late in the day there will be multiple singles out.  If you are in a foursome and let them all play though then you waste to much time.  In this situation the expectation is that they join up.  I have had a couple of conflicts in this situation.  They are trying to practice, get in as many holes as possible, so they don't want to join up.  Singles don't have a right to play through, it is a courtesy extended based on the situation.  In the situation I have described it is the single who is being selfish and discourteous.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

I kind of get what you are saying, but I'm struggling to wrap my head around this.  It sounds pithy and chic, but I don't know that it necessarily passes muster in the logic department.  If the OP is part of the 'problem', then it implies he is somehow contributing to these young players' lack of etiquette and safety on the course.  I'm not convinced it's the OP's responsibility to do so (correct their actions, that is).  Yeah, following up with a phone call may be a noble thing to do, but IMHO the reality is - it's the school's responsibility (the school who hired the advisor of their Golf Club) to either hire someone who knows that part of the game or, if he doesn't, make sure he's willing to learn it and then impart it on the kids.

The OP made his point to the advisor.  Whether or not it was done appropriately, I suppose, can be argued (I happen to think it was).  But point being - he did speak up and address a problem.  I don't believe it's necessary for him to follow up further to avoid being 'part of the problem'.  JMHO

I was able to wrap my head around a guy starting a thread on an obscure golf site as a form of getting involved in his local golf community versus offering to help out a fellow teacher who seems to be in over his head in the golf ettiquette department.

What I didn't wrap my head around was at least poster being told he was "part of the problem" for thinking the OP was being a bit of a twat (paraphrasing). Really? How the hell is someone posting in this thread part of the ettiquette problem moreso than the person who missed a potential opportunity to guide new golfers in real life? After he was told "We're not worried about ettiquette today", how hard would it have been to ask when they would be covering that and genuinely offer a helping hand?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by allin

I would mention one situation which I do not let singles play through.  Sometimes late in the day there will be multiple singles out.  If you are in a foursome and let them all play though then you waste to much time.  In this situation the expectation is that they join up.  I have had a couple of conflicts in this situation.  They are trying to practice, get in as many holes as possible, so they don't want to join up.  Singles don't have a right to play through, it is a courtesy extended based on the situation.  In the situation I have described it is the single who is being selfish and discourteous.

I see both sides of this. I also believe they're being a bit selfish. If you let them all through, you might not finish the round you paid for. How is that fair?

On the other hand, I often play twilight rounds solo and if a foursome refused to let me through, I'd be forced to go around missing at least one hole I paid to play. 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of another.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

What I didn't wrap my head around was at least poster being told he was "part of the problem" for thinking the OP was being a bit of a twat (paraphrasing).

I've read this sentence several times and haven't figured out what you're trying to get across.  May I please trouble you for clarification?  Thx.

[allin]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I see both sides of this. I also believe they're being a bit selfish. If you let them all through, you might not finish the round you paid for. How is that fair?

On the other hand, I often play twilight rounds solo and if a foursome refused to let me through, I'd be forced to go around missing at least one hole I paid to play. 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of another.

I admit I will have it good this year.  I paid for a season pass and will have a cart for these type of rounds this year.  So if I am just practicing I will just skip around.  If you are walking that doesn't work.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by allin

I would mention one situation which I do not let singles play through.  Sometimes late in the day there will be multiple singles out.  If you are in a foursome and let them all play though then you waste to much time.  In this situation the expectation is that they join up.  I have had a couple of conflicts in this situation.  They are trying to practice, get in as many holes as possible, so they don't want to join up.  Singles don't have a right to play through, it is a courtesy extended based on the situation.  In the situation I have described it is the single who is being selfish and discourteous.

In an instance like this, it's probably better for the singles to join up together and play out as a group.  That's part of the beauty of this game - the social aspect of it.  You can meet some really nice people simply be being joined up in a group.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

In an instance like this, it's probably better for the singles to join up together and play out as a group.  That's part of the beauty of this game - the social aspect of it.  You can meet some really nice people simply be being joined up in a group.

I agree.  I'd always rather join up with someone than continue playing as a single.