Ball falls off the tee after a missed stroke

[Ignorant]

Here's the cake:

John J. tees his ball and makes a hefty sving at the ball but misses. Addressing his ball again he accidentally knocks the ball off the tee. Frustrated he picks the ball up and tees it again but this time on the other side of the tee box, roughly 3 meters away from the original place and drives the ball onto the fairway.

What is his score for the hole being played so far?

[Double Bogey]

I would say that he has taken one stroke (the missed ball stroke) the second stroke was him hitting it onto the fairway.  If his ball is accidentally knocked off the tee on the tee box it is not considered a stroke.  So I would say that he is laying two.

[Shindig]

Originally Posted by Double Bogey

I would say that he has taken one stroke (the missed ball stroke) the second stroke was him hitting it onto the fairway.  If his ball is accidentally knocked off the tee on the tee box it is not considered a stroke.  So I would say that he is laying two.

Once he makes a deliberate attempt to hit the ball, it's in play.  He's laying at least four.

[zeg]

Ok, here's my take: The ball is in play on the tee after his first stroke, so he takes a penalty for moving it when addressing. He is now required to replace it (see Decision 11-3/1). He is not entitled to move his ball at this point other than by making a stroke, so there will be further penalty strokes for picking it up, the question is how many and under what rules. This is where it gets a little weird. I believe the correct ruling would be that he has declared his originally-teed ball unplayable, and is returning to the point where he made his previous stroke (i.e., exactly where it currently is) to make his next stroke. Under rule 20-5, because this point is on the teeing ground, he is free to tee the ball anywhere on the teeing ground. Thus, he incurs one penalty stroke for the unplayable lie and is now lying three on the tee. After his second stroke, he is lying four in the fairway. The other interpretation would be that his second tee shot was playing from the wrong place, which would give him two penalty strokes and have him lying five, but I don't think that is correct. Even if he was acting in ignorance, I think he's entitled to the interpretation of his actions that gives him the best score.

[Zeph]

1. Missed the ball 2. Knocks the ball off the tee, penalty stroke 3-4. Plays the ball from a wrong place, two penalty strokes 5. Hits his ball onto the fairway You are allowed to lift the ball if you knock it off the tee, taking a penalty or not. I don't think he should be penalized for lifting the ball since he should replace the ball on the tee.

[zeg]

1. Missed the ball 2. Knocks the ball off the tee, penalty stroke 3-4. Plays the ball from a wrong place, two penalty strokes 5. Hits his ball onto the fairway You are allowed to lift the ball if you knock it off the tee, taking a penalty or not. I don't think he should be penalized for lifting the ball since he should replace the ball on the tee.

Sorry, what I meant about there being penalty strokes for picking it up was assuming he replaced his ball as required, then moved it. Of course he's allowed to pick it up to replace it. In reality, that's probably not what happened---he probably just picked it up and re-teed elsewhere. But I think he's only lying four out in the fairway. Since he's on the teeing ground, he would be permitted to take the same actions with an unplayable lie penalty (one stroke) instead of a wrong place penalty (two strokes).

[Chief Broom]

Originally Posted by zeg

But I think he's only lying four out in the fairway. Since he's on the teeing ground, he would be permitted to take the same actions with an unplayable lie penalty (one stroke) instead of a wrong place penalty (two strokes).

5 in the fairway.  If you hit a ball OB or you lose it off the tee you are entitled to recreate your original "lie".  When the last stroke was made dictates the requirements of a subsequent stroke made under penalty.  In this case replacing the ball after an attempted stroke on a "tee".  When the dude retees in a different location the ball is deemed to be "moved" and thus incurs a 2 stroke penalty.  Further problems present themselves after the player does not go back at some point during the hole and begin from the correct location, but since a 2 stroke penalty was incurred for the original movement of the ball no further penalty can be accessed to that particular infraction.  Also under match play conditions the competitor in question would simply forfeit the hole.

[ghalfaire]

Well I vote for three.  Once a deliberate stroke is taken the ball is in play.  So he had to declare it unplayable and take the option of hitting from the original position, the tee box.   I don't believe knocking the ball off the tee is a stroke if it wasn't intended as such so he can re-tee it and until he takes another stroke he can re-tee it anywhere in the tee box.  So he is laying three in the fairway.

Maybe one of the rules experts that read this forum will let us know.

[zeg]

5 in the fairway.  If you hit a ball OB or you lose it off the tee you are entitled to recreate your original "lie".  When the last stroke was made dictates the requirements of a subsequent stroke made under penalty.  In this case replacing the ball after an attempted stroke on a "tee".  When the dude retees in a different location the ball is deemed to be "moved" and thus incurs a 2 stroke penalty.  Further problems present themselves after the player does not go back at some point during the hole and begin from the correct location, but since a 2 stroke penalty was incurred for the original movement of the ball no further penalty can be accessed to that particular infraction.  Also under match play conditions the competitor in question would simply forfeit the hole.

I'm pretty confident that this is incorrect. Under Rule 27-1, you may always simply choose to take a penalty stroke and return to the location of your previous stroke ("At any time a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot which the original ball was played"). You then have to follow the rule for returning to that spot and putting the ball back in play. The rule that governs this is the one I cited in my previous post, 20-5. It says [quote]20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows: a. On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed. b.Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green. c.In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard. d.On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green. [/quote]Thus, by (a), when your previous spot was teed on the teeing ground, there's no penalty for choosing a different location. Also, note that in no case do you "recreate the original lie." You tee, drop, or place, but that is all. So if your previous shot was a buried bunker shot and your drop sits up on top of the sand, you don't have to re-bury it. So, anyway, I still think it's: 1) stroke, ball is now in play atop the tee 2) penalty (under Rule 18-2) for moving ball, ball should be replaced on the tee 3) penalty (under rule 27-1) for playing a ball from the location of the previous stroke, which because this is on the teeing ground, "may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed" 4) stroke, ball lands in fairway Edit: ghalfaire posted while I was writing that, here's my response: [quote name="ghalfaire"]I don't believe knocking the ball off the tee is a stroke if it wasn't intended as such so he can re-tee it and until he takes another stroke he can re-tee it anywhere in the tee box. So he is laying three in the fairway.[/quote]That's an interesting interpretation. Knocking the ball off accidentially is certainly not a stroke, but it may (or may not) be a penalty. I think it depends on the sequence of events. If he knocked the ball off the tee while picking it up to move it somewhere else, I think you'd be correct. If, as I pictured it, he was either preparing for his next stroke or otherwise being careless, then decided after knocking it off the tee that he was going to move and re-tee, I think both penalties would be warranted. I don't have any specific basis for this, though, other than my own sense of Equity...

[ghalfaire]

I decided to read the rules (always helpful) and for an unplayable lie you have to drop the ball.  So the player was not entitled to re-tee the ball since it was in play.  So I am not sure now just what he lies but as a minimum he moved the ball and did not replace it so that's 2 penalty strokes and not sure what the penalty is for teeing the ball as he was not entitled to do that (DQ maybe).

[zeg]

Ok, well, I think I have found a pair of decisions that match this situation well enough to resolve it. And, I think ghalfaire's (original) interpretation is correct. Here's the first decision: [QUOTE]18-2a/1 Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making Next Stroke Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely. He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the ruling? A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition of "Ball in Play"). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. [/QUOTE] Basically, the stroke-and-distance penalty overrides the other penalty for moving the ball since he proceeded properly according to the stroke-and-distance rule. So the penalty stroke for moving the ball in the first place is waived. The other decision: [QUOTE]18-2a/2 Ball Falling Off Tee When Stroke Just Touches It Is Picked Up and Re-Teed Q.A player making his first stroke on a hole just touched the ball and it fell off the tee. He picked up the ball, re-teed it and played out the hole. What is the ruling? A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition of "Ball in Play"). When he lifted the ball, he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke at the re-teed ball, he played a ball under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. [/QUOTE] Same reasoning here. Normally, there'd be a penalty for picking up the ball, but because the player re-teed and takes a stroke-and-distance penalty, it is waived. There's a slight wrinkle in that there are two different actions in the OP's case---bumping the ball from the tee with a club, then picking it up and re-teeing it, but I don't think that will change the reasoning. So I change my vote: I think he's lying three: 1) stroke 2) stroke-and-distance penalty stroke 3) stroke

[Fourputt]

In my opinion he is lying 4.

1) swing and miss 1 stroke

2) bumping the ball, then playing from a wrong place - 2 strokes

3) drive in the fairway - 1 stroke

When he knocked the ball off the tee he caused a ball in play and at rest to move by means not allowed in the rules.  If he had simply replaced the ball on the tee, he would have only incurred a one stroke penalty.  At this point whether he plays it as it lies, or moves it elsewhere on the teeing ground, he is still just playing from a wrong place, incurring the 2 stroke penalty for that, but simply absorbing the one stroke for moving the ball.

An argument could be made for saying that he was taking a stroke and distance penalty, in which case one penalty stroke would apply for that, since in returning to the teeing ground, he is allowed to retee the ball anywhere on the teeing ground. But he still incurs the one stroke penalty for moving his ball in play - he can't escape this regardless of how he proceeds.  If that were the case he would still be lying 4 - 1 for the whiff, 1 for the bump, 1 for stroke and distance, and one for the successful drive.  If I were to come across this unlikely incident, I would refer it upstairs to my Chief Rules Official, or to the tournament committee for resolution.  It would require interviewing the player as to his intentions, examining the facts, and making the ruling based on that.

But since I see the same total either way, I don't think it makes a lot of difference unless I'm off target on something.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I decided to read the rules (always helpful) and for an unplayable lie you have to drop the ball.  So the player was not entitled to re-tee the ball since it was in play.  So I am not sure now just what he lies but as a minimum he moved the ball and did not replace it so that's 2 penalty strokes and not sure what the penalty is for teeing the ball as he was not entitled to do that (DQ maybe).

Not true.  If the player returns to the tee he may retee the ball anywhere on the teeing ground.

The more I think about it, the less I like this scenario.  The ball was not knocked off the tee by making a stroke, so how then can the player take a stroke and distance penalty?  I still prefer the wrong place scenario.

[zeg]

The more I think about it, the less I like this scenario.  The ball was not knocked off the tee by making a stroke, so how then can the player take a stroke and distance penalty?  I still prefer the wrong place scenario.

I think the "wrong place" theory doesn't actually work. Rule 27-1a includes "Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance." Since, under 20-5, anywhere on the teeing ground is "the spot at which the original ball was last played," there are no two ways about it: he is deemed to have played under stroke and distance. That leaves the question of whether the penalty for the bump is enforced. In the decisions I quoted above, penalties for moving or lifting the ball are overridden by the stroke and distance penalty. In both those, though, the penalty being overridden is for moving the ball to the spot where the next legal stroke will be played, rather than an unrelated non-stroke moving of the ball. This leads to your (and my original) answer of four strokes. The only thing I don't like is that it requires ruling on the player's intention, since he'd be within his rights to push the ball off the tee to a new position on the teeing ground and proceed under stroke and distance. While unlikely, I can imagine someone deciding to hit his iron off the turf after whiffing on a tee, and just bumping the ball off the tee rather than moving it "properly." As long as his intention was to move the ball to a new position on the teeing ground, I don't think any rule would preclude him from doing so by pushing it with a club.

[Zeph]

1st stroke: Whiffed the ball

2nd stroke: Penalty stroke for bumping the ball off the tee

11-3/1 Stroke Misses Ball; Ball Then Accidentally Knocked Off Tee

Q. A player teed his ball within the teeing ground. He made a stroke at the ball but missed it. He addressed the ball again and accidentally knocked it off the tee. What is the ruling?

A. When the player made a stroke at the ball, it was in play and Rule 11-3 no longer applied. When the ball in play moved after it was addressed, the player incurred a penalty stroke and was obliged to replace the ball (Rule 18-2b).

3rd stroke: Penalty stroke for taking an unplayable lie when moving the ball to a new spot on the teeing ground. The ball is in play and supposed to be replaced. He does not replace it, but decides to move it to a new spot, which give him a penalty stroke.

20-3a/3 Whether Ball Must Be Replaced If Other Rule Applies

Q. If a Rule requires a ball at rest that was moved to be replaced (e.g., Rule 18-2a), must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)?

A. No. If a player is proceeding under a Rule that requires him to replace the ball but another Rule applies, he may proceed directly under the other Rule. The ruling would be the same even if the original spot were not known, in which case the estimated position of the ball would be the reference point for proceeding under the other Rule.

4th stroke: Hitting his next shot from the tee

He does not incur a penalty for playing from the wrong place since you can place the ball anywhere on the tee box when taking an unplayable lie.

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

a. On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

But he must be penalized for taking an unplayable lie. The ball was on the tee box and in play, he was supposed to replace it. He can't just move a ball in play to a new location.

[Ignorant]

Interesting discussion and follows pretty much the path I anticipated.

The way I see it is analogous to Zeg's first post, i.e. missed stroke + moving the ball in play (18-2a) + stroke&distance; (R27-1) + drive onto the fairway equals 4. This cannot be a case of playing from a wrong place as R20-5 allows player to tee his ball anywhere on the teeing ground.

One might argue based on those 2 decisions 18-2a/1 & 2 that the player is absolved from the penalty of R18-2a but I believe there is no way he could be absolved as he would incur the same punishment if he proceeded analogously on a fairway and return to the tee after having accidentally moved his ball in play.

But let us make this more complicated (and fourputt: even more far from reality...) and move to a par3 hole. What if the player after having bumped his ball onto the ground decided that the ball has a perfect lie for a 7I shot and decides to hit the ball from that very spot. Is he now playing from a wrong place or has he accidentally re-teed his ball thus lying 2 before his next stroke from the tee box? And I point out here that teeing does not mean using a tee or a peg but placing a ball on the teeing ground to be played.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

But let us make this more complicated (and fourputt: even more far from reality...) and move to a par3 hole. What if the player after having bumped his ball onto the ground decided that the ball has a perfect lie for a 7I shot and decides to hit the ball from that very spot. Is he now playing from a wrong place or has he accidentally re-teed his ball thus lying 2 before his next stroke from the tee box? And I point out here that teeing does not mean using a tee or a peg but placing a ball on the teeing ground to be played.

Depends if it's his first swing or if he first missed the ball.

First swing: You are allowed to re-tee the ball, which means the ball can be hit from where it lies if you want to. The rules says you can re-tee it, not that it has to be replaced. The ball is not yet in play, no penalty, you are hitting your first shot.

Second swing: The ball is in play. One stroke penalty for bumping the ball. Two stroke penalty for not moving the ball back. You can pick the ball up and drop it, like in the first example in this thread, but you can't hit it from where it lies after bumping it. The ball is in play and you have moved it to a wrong place. You can pick it up and drop it somewhere, or re-tee it and hit it from there. If you drop it, you'll get another penalty stroke. If you re-tee it, you'll only get the one for bumping the ball.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Interesting discussion and follows pretty much the path I anticipated.

The way I see it is analogous to Zeg's first post, i.e. missed stroke + moving the ball in play (18-2a) + stroke&distance; (R27-1) + drive onto the fairway equals 4. This cannot be a case of playing from a wrong place as R20-5 allows player to tee his ball anywhere on the teeing ground.

One might argue based on those 2 decisions 18-2a/1 & 2 that the player is absolved from the penalty of R18-2a but I believe there is no way he could be absolved as he would incur the same punishment if he proceeded analogously on a fairway and return to the tee after having accidentally moved his ball in play.

But let us make this more complicated (and fourputt: even more far from reality...) and move to a par3 hole. What if the player after having bumped his ball onto the ground decided that the ball has a perfect lie for a 7I shot and decides to hit the ball from that very spot. Is he now playing from a wrong place or has he accidentally re-teed his ball thus lying 2 before his next stroke from the tee box? And I point out here that teeing does not mean using a tee or a peg but placing a ball on the teeing ground to be played.

If he plays the ball as it lies after causing his ball in play to move in breach of Rule 18, then he has definitely played from a wrong place.  He has made no effort to take the stroke and distance penalty, so it can't possibly be inferred that he has played under Rule 28.  He did not follow any of the required procedures, to wit:  He did not either drop a ball, nor did he retee a ball as required.  He played the ball as it lay in breach of Rule 18-2a(ii).

Quote:

I think the "wrong place" theory doesn't actually work. Rule 27-1a includes "Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance."

That phrase is primarily intended to account for a ball played immediately from the same place, as when a player hits one into a questionable area and immediately drops another ball and plays, only to discover later that the original ball is playable.  This clause prevents him from changing his mind or intent after the fact.  It isn't intended to save him from responsibility when he has proceeded under an inapplicable rule.

The whole discussion seems moot to me as he will be signing for the same score in either result, thus disqualification is not in the picture unless he fails to count one of the strokes or one of the penalties.  He either incurs 2 one stroke penalties, or 1 two stroke penalty.