Ball falls off the tee after a missed stroke

[zeg]

That phrase is primarily intended to account for a ball played immediately from the same place, as when a player hits one into a questionable area and immediately drops another ball and plays, only to discover later that the original ball is playable. This clause prevents him from changing his mind or intent after the fact. It isn't intended to save him from responsibility when he has proceeded under an inapplicable rule.

Sure, but if he takes his penalty for the bump he is done with that rule, and now needs to replace the ball. Using the decision that Zeph quoted, he doesn't actually need to replace it if he then proceeds under stroke and distance. So when he moves the ball and tees it elsewhere, he has played from the previous spot so from the language of the rule, he is deemed to have played under it. I don't think it's significant whether he knows what rules he's following, but his procedure is permitted. There is a decision that says if you make a *stroke* on a ball, you can no longer return to the previous other place under this (or the unplayable lie) rule. But that doesn't apply since there's no second stroke, only a bump and your in-play position is still on the first tee. [quote name="Zeph"]One stroke penalty for bumping the ball. Two stroke penalty for not moving the ball back. You can pick the ball up and drop it, like in the first example in this thread, but you can't hit it from where it lies after bumping it. The ball is in play and you have moved it to a wrong place. You can pick it up and drop it somewhere, or re-tee it and hit it from there. If you drop it, you'll get another penalty stroke. If you re-tee it, you'll only get the one for bumping the ball.[/quote] Where is the requirement that the player actually touch the ball to play under stroke and distance? If your read the clauses in 20-5 (the rule for how to play a ball "as near as possible at the previous spot," parts b. (through the green) and c. (in a hazard) specify a ball must be dropped, and d. (on the putting green) specifies it must be placed. In part a. (on the teeing ground), it is simply stated that it must be played and it [i]may[/i] be teed. As long as the bumped ball is still within the teeing ground, I don't see a requirement for any specific action to take advantage of the rule. I believe it would be exactly the same as the original case. This is, of course, assuming he started with the whiff. If not, there's no penalties at all since the ball was not in play until a stroke was made.

[Fourputt]

Here's the way I read Rule 18.  The ball MUST be replaced before any other action is taken or he is playing from a wrong place.  There is nothing in the rule that allows him to declare that the ball is unplayable until it is replaced.

When a player's ball is in play, if:

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or

(ii)equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

There is no mention of a scenario which does not require the ball to be replaced before making a stroke.  If the player moves directly to another procedure without replacing the ball, he has breached a necessary part of the process.  If he does not replace it before declaring the ball unplayable then he should incur the 2 strokes for not replacing ball before proceeding.  You are trying to give him a cheap out for not following procedure.  I would dispute your contention.

[ghalfaire]

I guess the confusing part for me is "when is the ball back in play if the player is proceeding under rule 27-1a?".  Normally it isn't in play until you legally drop the ball but in this case the "drop" was to re-tee the ball on the teeing ground, which I agree with fourputt that he was entitled to do that.   Normally on the teeing ground the ball isn't in play until a stroke is taken, so is the ball in play at this point? Rule 20-4 would seem to say it is in play once it was placed on the tee.   So when the player accidentally bumped it off the tee he should have replaced back on the tee at that location.  But he didn't and so he moved the ball by re-teeing in a different location.  So the count is:

initial bump or whiff = 1 stroke

proceeding under rule 27-1a =  1 stoke

second bump =  1 stoke

not replacing ball in the same location after the second bump = 2 stokes

hitting it to the fairway = 1 stoke

So I would believe the player is laying 6 in the fairway.

But I also wonder if by not replacing the ball in the same location after the second bump off the tee, but re-teeing in the teeing ground,  if he was not proceeding under rule 27-1a a second time and now lays 5 in the fairway.  No wonder this game is difficult.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by zeg

Where is the requirement that the player actually touch the ball to play under stroke and distance? If your read the clauses in 20-5 (the rule for how to play a ball "as near as possible at the previous spot," parts b. (through the green) and c. (in a hazard) specify a ball must be dropped, and d. (on the putting green) specifies it must be placed. In part a. (on the teeing ground), it is simply stated that it must be played and it may be teed. As long as the bumped ball is still within the teeing ground, I don't see a requirement for any specific action to take advantage of the rule. I believe it would be exactly the same as the original case.

This is, of course, assuming he started with the whiff. If not, there's no penalties at all since the ball was not in play until a stroke was made.

That's a valid point. I don't know how to interpret that one really. It says played , which is not described in any way. In every other situation, you have to drop or place the ball, but on the teeing ground it just says played.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If he plays the ball as it lies after causing his ball in play to move in breach of Rule 18, then he has definitely played from a wrong place.  He has made no effort to take the stroke and distance penalty, so it can't possibly be inferred that he has played under Rule 28.  He did not follow any of the required procedures, to wit:  He did not either drop a ball, nor did he retee a ball as required.  He played the ball as it lay in breach of Rule 18-2a(ii).

I agree but want to challenge You with this, just for the fun of it. Where is it described how a ball should be teed? What is the required procedure for teeing a ball?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Here's the way I read Rule 18.  The ball MUST be replaced before any other action is taken or he is playing from a wrong place.  There is nothing in the rule that allows him to declare that the ball is unplayable until it is replaced.

There is no mention of a scenario which does not require the ball to be replaced before making a stroke.  If the player moves directly to another procedure without replacing the ball, he has breached a necessary part of the process.  If he does not replace it before declaring the ball unplayable then he should incur the 2 strokes for not replacing ball before proceeding.  You are trying to give him a cheap out for not following procedure.  I would dispute your contention.

This I must disagree. There is a decision describing that the player does not have to replace his ball if he is invoking R28 after having moved it. I'm too lazy to dig it up but we did deal with this kind of scenario in an earlier case OP'd by myself some maybe 6-10 months ago.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Where is the requirement that the player actually touch the ball to play under stroke and distance? If your read the clauses in 20-5 (the rule for how to play a ball "as near as possible at the previous spot," parts b. (through the green) and c. (in a hazard) specify a ball must be dropped, and d. (on the putting green) specifies it must be placed. In part a. (on the teeing ground), it is simply stated that it must be played and it may be teed. As long as the bumped ball is still within the teeing ground, I don't see a requirement for any specific action to take advantage of the rule. I believe it would be exactly the same as the original case.

This is, of course, assuming he started with the whiff. If not, there's no penalties at all since the ball was not in play until a stroke was made.

This is very much linked to the post I just made to fourputt and I also want to challenge this one.

As the ball is in play after having been hit (but missed) as well as after the missed stroke bumbed off the tee, an interesting situation is created. Now, the ball is in play but if it is re-teed it is, by definition, not in play before a stroke has been made at it. Also this ball has now been replaced (as it has been teed, i.e. it is a new ball) while it is still in play and has NOT been replaced. In essence, the ball just replaced itself and at the same time it is in play and not in play.

Confusing, huh? I would say not possible. What do others say?

(for clarity, we are dealing with the scenario where a player first misses his tee shot and then bumps the ball off the tee while addressing, and then decides to hit the ball from the ground without moving it anywhere)

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Here's the way I read Rule 18.  The ball MUST be replaced before any other action is taken or he is playing from a wrong place.  There is nothing in the rule that allows him to declare that the ball is unplayable until it is replaced.

There is no mention of a scenario which does not require the ball to be replaced before making a stroke.  If the player moves directly to another procedure without replacing the ball, he has breached a necessary part of the process.  If he does not replace it before declaring the ball unplayable then he should incur the 2 strokes for not replacing ball before proceeding.  You are trying to give him a cheap out for not following procedure.  I would dispute your contention.

The way I read this decision, you don't have to replace the ball if you are taking stroke and distance penalty. You won't be penalized for both infringements and the stroke and distance procedure overrides the wrong place procedure.

18-2a/2 Ball Falling Off Tee When Stroke Just Touches It Is Picked Up and Re-Teed

Q. A player making his first stroke on a hole just touched the ball and it fell off the tee. He picked up the ball, re-teed it and played out the hole. What is the ruling?

A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition of "Ball in Play"). When he lifted the ball, he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke at the re-teed ball, he played a ball under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

As the ball is in play after having been hit (but missed) as well as after the missed stroke bumbed off the tee, an interesting situation is created. Now, the ball is in play but if it is re-teed it is, by definition, not in play before a stroke has been made at it. Also this ball has now been replaced (as it has been teed, i.e. it is a new ball) while it is still in play and has NOT been replaced. In essence, the ball just replaced itself and at the same time it is in play and not in play.

Confusing, huh? I would say not possible. What do others say?

(for clarity, we are dealing with the scenario where a player first misses his tee shot and then bumps the ball off the tee while addressing, and then decides to hit the ball from the ground without moving it anywhere)

The issue is that the rules does not state that the ball has to be placed, dropped or anything of the sort when taking stroke and distance on the teeing ground. It only says the ball must be played from the teeing ground. If you were anywhere but on the teeing ground, the rules says you have to drop or place the ball. As long as the ball is still on the teeing ground, you are playing it from there. You don't have to lift, drop, re-tee or place the ball to use stroke and distance on the teeing ground. A dog could pick up the ball and drop it anywhere on the teeing ground and you could play it without taking two strokes for playing from the wrong place.

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

a. On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

b. Through the Green: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the coursethrough the green.

c. In a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped and when dropped must first strike a part of the course in the hazard.

d. On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed on the putting green.

[Fourputt]

So we are back to 2 one stroke penalties.   Ball lying 4 after the successful drive.

If he played it as it lay after bumping it, then he incurs the 2 stroke penalty under 18-2 because no attempt was made to play stroke and distance and he did not replace the ball, no matter if the ball was still within the teeing ground.  He simply played from a wrong place.

If he had replaced it on the tee then he only incurs the one stroke for moving it when he bumped it.

Either that or he gets disqualified for being a total idiot.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

So we are back to 2 one stroke penalties.   Ball lying 4 after the successful drive.

If he played it as it lay after bumping it, then he incurs the 2 stroke penalty under 18-2 because no attempt was made to play stroke and distance and he did not replace the ball, no matter if the ball was still within the teeing ground.  He simply played from a wrong place.

If he had replaced it on the tee then he only incurs the one stroke for moving it when he bumped it.

Either that or he gets disqualified for being a total idiot.

Precisely! This is how I see it, too, literally ;-)

[zeg]

You are trying to give him a cheap out for not following procedure.

Not really, at least, that's not my intention. I'd argue that your interpretation punishes him unjustly for not taking an action that has no bearing on his next stroke. As long as the correct point is (or could have been) used in the procedure used to put the ball in its next position, whether or not he actually set the ball there doesn't seem important. Re-quoting a decision that was quoted earlier, because I think it backs me up: [quote]20-3a/3 Whether Ball Must Be Replaced If Other Rule Applies Q. If a Rule requires a ball at rest that was moved to be replaced (e.g., Rule 18-2a), must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)? A. No. If a player is proceeding under a Rule that requires him to replace the ball but another Rule applies, he may proceed directly under the other Rule. The ruling would be the same even if the original spot were not known, in which case the estimated position of the ball would be the reference point for proceeding under the other Rule.[/quote] This decision describes a situation where dropping or placing the ball is occuring, so does not directly apply to playing a ball from the teeing ground, but it seems to me that Equity would allow us to apply it there as well, since to my reading, the point is that you don't need to go through the motion of setting the ball somewhere if you're immediately allowed to move it somewhere else. Anyway, it strikes me that we're bordering on silliness with some of these scenarios. It's been interesting, though, and I think perhaps they're not quite as outlandish among amateur golfers as they might seem. I bet some pretty strange things have come up out of frustration after a whiff on the tee box, and I think we'll all be better prepared to dole out the proper number of penalty strokes (even if we don't wind up agreeing on what rules they come from)!

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

The issue is that the rules does not state that the ball has to be placed, dropped or anything of the sort when taking stroke and distance on the teeing ground. It only says the ball must be played from the teeing ground. If you were anywhere but on the teeing ground, the rules says you have to drop or place the ball. As long as the ball is still on the teeing ground, you are playing it from there. You don't have to lift, drop, re-tee or place the ball to use stroke and distance on the teeing ground. A dog could pick up the ball and drop it anywhere on the teeing ground and you could play it without taking two strokes for playing from the wrong place.

True, but in order to tee a ball it has to be a ball not in play, and in order to take a ball that is in play out of play one needs to move it somehow. Futhermore IMO this moving has to be recognized to be an effort to tee the ball. In this case the ball stays in play until it has been either lifted or otherwise deliberately moved to a new teeing spot. It is impossible to have a ball in play and out of play at the same time.

I must admit that this case is extremely theoretical but it could have some far reaching consequences: should placing a ball be more accurately defined in the Rules? Currently one may place a ball as one pleases as long no other Rule is breached (eg. rolling one's ball back to it's original spot with a putter on the putting green, see http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-16/#16-1d/3 ). On the other hand, in the Winter Rule under R&A; jurisdiction it is specifically forbidden to roll the ball with a club but it must be picked up and placed. Would it be much clearer if the Rules dictated that in order to invoke a Rule XYZ the ball must be lifted and placed/replaced with hands? Is this amendment needed? It could easily be embedded in R20-3a.

[Ignorant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You are trying to give him a cheap out for not following procedure.

Not really, at least, that's not my intention. I'd argue that your interpretation punishes him unjustly for not taking an action that has no bearing on his next stroke. As long as the correct point is (or could have been) used in the procedure used to put the ball in its next position, whether or not he actually set the ball there doesn't seem important.

Re-quoting a decision that was quoted earlier, because I think it backs me up:

Quote:

20-3a/3 Whether Ball Must Be Replaced If Other Rule Applies

Q. If a Rule requires a ball at rest that was moved to be replaced (e.g., Rule 18-2a), must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)?

A. No. If a player is proceeding under a Rule that requires him to replace the ball but another Rule applies, he may proceed directly under the other Rule. The ruling would be the same even if the original spot were not known, in which case the estimated position of the ball would be the reference point for proceeding under the other Rule.

This decision describes a situation where dropping or placing the ball is occuring, so does not directly apply to playing a ball from the teeing ground, but it seems to me that Equity would allow us to apply it there as well, since to my reading, the point is that you don't need to go through the motion of setting the ball somewhere if you're immediately allowed to move it somewhere else.

Anyway, it strikes me that we're bordering on silliness with some of these scenarios. It's been interesting, though, and I think perhaps they're not quite as outlandish among amateur golfers as they might seem. I bet some pretty strange things have come up out of frustration after a whiff on the tee box, and I think we'll all be better prepared to dole out the proper number of penalty strokes (even if we don't wind up agreeing on what rules they come from)!

Again, this Decision quite clearly says: '.. dropping or placing the ball in another place..'. So, in another place . Not possible to leave the ball where it is and simultaneously invoke another Rule.

Another argument I already mentioned before. If a player would do the same thing on the fairway, is there any rational reason why ruling should be different? That is, drive onto the fairway, moving the ball in play while addressing it, picking the ball up and returning to the tee and another drive. Now lying three or four? Why a player should be absolved from a penalty incurred due to moving his ball in play in either case?

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Again, this Decision quite clearly says: '.. dropping or placing the ball in another place..'. So, in another place. Not possible to leave the ball where it is and simultaneously invoke another Rule.

Another argument I already mentioned before. If a player would do the same thing on the fairway, is there any rational reason why ruling should be different? That is, drive onto the fairway, moving the ball in play while addressing it, picking the ball up and returning to the tee and another drive. Now lying three or four? Why a player should be absolved from a penalty incurred due to moving his ball in play in either case?

The decision says in another place , referring to the original spot where the ball lay. The ball was originally on the tee, when it's bumped down on the grass, it is in another place.

It is different because of the wording used in the rules that I quoted above. When you are on the fairway or in a hazard, the rules state that the ball has to be dropped . On the green, it has to be placed . But when on the teeing ground, the rules only says the ball has to be played . It does not say anything about how the ball get there. You can throw it over your back and hit it from wherever it lands. Why should you then not be allowed to hit the ball from where it lies after bumping it off the tee without being penalized for playing from a wrong place? If you want to take stroke and distance, you can simply lift the ball and replace it at the same spot on the ground where you bumped it to. But the rules doesn't say that you have to lift or touch the ball, it just says the ball has to be played from the teeing ground.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

The decision says in another place, referring to the original spot where the ball lay. The ball was originally on the tee, when it's bumped down on the grass, it is in another place.

It is different because of the wording used in the rules that I quoted above. When you are on the fairway or in a hazard, the rules state that the ball has to be dropped. On the green, it has to be placed. But when on the teeing ground, the rules only says the ball has to be played. It does not say anything about how the ball get there. You can throw it over your back and hit it from wherever it lands. Why should you then not be allowed to hit the ball from where it lies after bumping it off the tee without being penalized for playing from a wrong place? If you want to take stroke and distance, you can simply lift the ball and replace it at the same spot on the ground where you bumped it to. But the rules doesn't say that you have to lift or touch the ball, it just says the ball has to be played from the teeing ground.

First of all, the decision refers to a place where the ball needs to be transferred AFTER the player has made his decision to invoke eg. R28. In the case at hand the player has not made any decision to invoke any Rule BEFORE he bumps his ball off the tee. Even in the Decision the player is not absolved from 1 penalty for R18-2a.

Secondly I keep referring to the fact that a ball cannot be in play and out of play at the same time. It is simply impossible.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

First of all, the decision refers to a place where the ball needs to be transferred AFTER the player has made his decision to invoke eg. R28. In the case at hand the player has not made any decision to invoke any Rule BEFORE he bumps his ball off the tee. Even in the Decision the player is not absolved from 1 penalty for R18-2a.

Secondly I keep referring to the fact that a ball cannot be in play and out of play at the same time. It is simply impossible.

After the ball is bumped, it is supposed to be on the tee, that is the original placement of the ball. Where it lies is a wrong place, so the original place is always on the tee. But instead of moving the ball back before placing it again, you are allowed to place the ball directly. Another point is that the rules says: must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)?. Note the another Rule and e.g. The rule does not say you have to place the ball in another place, but that it is one option. This rule doesn't say how to drop or place the ball. That is governed under rule 20-5 , which says only that the ball as to be played from the teeing ground. Not placed, not in another place, not dropped.

Why would you not be allowed to drop, place or play the ball from wherever you want when you take stroke and distance penalty? You can take stroke and distance and place the ball at the same place as the ball is if you want to. I haven't seen any rules forbidding this. You are on the teeing ground, that is all that matters, you can play the ball from wherever you want. If you are on the playing field, you have to pick it up and drop it, but not on the teeing ground.

What has ball in play/not in play got to do with this?

Ball in Play

A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

If a ball is played from outside the teeing ground when the player is starting play of a hole, or when attempting to correct this mistake, the ball is not in play and Rule 11-4 or 11-5 applies. Otherwise, ball in play includes a ball played from outside the teeing ground when the player elects or is required to play his next stroke from the teeing ground.

Exception in match play:Ball in play includes a ball played by the player from outside the teeing ground when starting play of a hole if the opponent does not require the stroke to be canceled in accordance with Rule 11-4a.

As far as I can tell, the ball is in play all the time since it is never lifted.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

After the ball is bumped, it is supposed to be on the tee, that is the original placement of the ball. Where it lies is a wrong place, so the original place is always on the tee. But instead of moving the ball back before placing it again, you are allowed to place the ball directly. Another point is that the rules says: must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)?. Note the another Rule and e.g. The rule does not say you have to place the ball in another place, but that it is one option. This rule doesn't say how to drop or place the ball. That is governed under rule 20-5, which says only that the ball as to be played from the teeing ground. Not placed, not in another place, not dropped.

Why would you not be allowed to drop, place or play the ball from wherever you want when you take stroke and distance penalty? You can take stroke and distance and place the ball at the same place as the ball is if you want to. I haven't seen any rules forbidding this. You are on the teeing ground, that is all that matters, you can play the ball from wherever you want. If you are on the playing field, you have to pick it up and drop it, but not on the teeing ground.

What has ball in play/not in play got to do with this?

As far as I can tell, the ball is in play all the time since it is never lifted.

But here's the beauty:

'A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground.'

So, this ball, allegedly teed by the player, is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it. See?

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

But here's the beauty:

'A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground.'

So, this ball, allegedly teed by the player, is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it. See?

Are we even talking about the same scenario? I'm talking about the scenario where he first miss the ball, which counts as a stroke, then bumps it off the tee, then hits it from where it lies.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Are we even talking about the same scenario? I'm talking about the scenario where he first miss the ball, which counts as a stroke, then bumps it off the tee, then hits it from where it lies.

Indeed we are, my friend. I try to elaborate a bit more.

1. Player makes a stroke at his ball on the tee but misses. Now his ball is in play.

2. Player accidentally bumps his ball off the tee. Ball is still in play.

3. Let us assume that he wants to continue from that spot where his ball ended up as a result of the bump AND the ball would now be 'teed' as it is described in the Definitions. Player does not touch his ball to tee it but just decides that it is now teed based on R27-1.

4. According to the Definition Ball in play a ball is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it on the teeing ground. So, it means that somewhere along the line this player's ball stopped being a ball in play. In fact, his ball just replaced itself !

As it is completely impossible to have a ball in play and at the same time not in play it is clear that whenever a player wants to tee a new ball it MUST be a ball not in play. Had the player lifted his ball from the ground it would have stopped being in play and he could have re-teed it, with a tee or without. As he did not lift it and did not purposely place it on the teeing ground his ball remains a ball in play and if he playes it from there he will be playing from wrong place and receive 2 penalties.

I hope this is clear now.