How to score this hole?

[BostonSully]

Last night on the first hole par4 straight 400yds. My friend and I both push our drives into the woods that lines the right side of the fairway. The person playing with us spots a ball right inside the tree line and says to me thats yours I think.

I was playing a titleist 3. However my friend was also playing a Titleist 3 which I didnt know. The difference was I had NXT and he had DTSOLO. I looked at the ball and the logo was face up, the titleist logo looks exactly the same on both balls. So I laid it into the fairway and he had to take a penalty drop.

I managed to save a bogey on that hole and he wound up with a triple thanks to the drop. It wasnt until after I holed my putt that  I picked up the ball and saw it was DTSOLO not NXT. I didnt do this on purpose and we both had thought the ball in the treeline was mine (because the way both our shanks went).

What score do I actually get?

[1puttit]

I believe it is a 2 stroke penalty. Rule 15-3.  This is why you should always mark your ball.

[BostonSully]

Hah damn. What about his score then does it stay the same?

[phillyk]

I don't have the rule book on me, and am too lazy to search online for it, but i think that after hitting the wrong ball, you incur a 2 stroke penalty and have to go back and play your actual ball until hole-out. not sure though, it might be just a 2 stroke penalty.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by phillyk

I don't have the rule book on me, and am too lazy to search online for it, but i think that after hitting the wrong ball, you incur a 2 stroke penalty and have to go back and play your actual ball until hole-out. not sure though, it might be just a 2 stroke penalty.

Correct on penalty and going back to play original ball, partners score should stay the same since he took an unnecessary penalty drop to begin with (as long as his drop was within one club length of his original ball). Technically if you shot first, your partner should have gone back and played his ball as close to possible to where it was

[ghalfaire]

Both players get a two stroke penalty and have to return and play their ball from the original position.  The second player is responsible (just like to OP) for identifying his his ball before he plays and is not excused for playing a wrong ball just because the first player hit his ball.

[saltman]

I believe it should be handled as such:

You get a 2 stroke penalty and have to go play your correct ball, (assuming you didn't already tee off of the next hole).  If you cannot find the correct ball, you have to go back to the tee and play it as a lost ball with an additional 1 stroke penalty.  So effectively you would be hitting 5 off the tee.

Your playing partner's ball was moved by an outside agency (you).  He incurs no penatly (also assuming he hasn't teed off the next hole), but must go back and play his ball in from the spot you played it from.

If you both teed off the next hole you would both be disqualified.  You for playing the wrong ball and he for playing a ball from the wrong place and not following the rules for doing so (which would mean an additional 2 shot penalty) prior to teeing off on the next hole.  He should have assumed his ball was lost and re-teed hitting 3.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by saltman

Your playing partner's ball was moved by an outside agency (you).  He incurs no penatly (also assuming he hasn't teed off the next hole), but must go back and play his ball in from the spot you played it from.

I think it's been established that the playing partner would incur a penalty as soon as he hit the wrong ball.

[saltman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I think it's been established that the playing partner would incur a penalty as soon as he hit the wrong ball.

Where did he say he hit the wrong ball?  The way I read the situation he took a penalty drop because he never found his ball.  They only found 1 of the 2 balls.  The playing partner then played from the wrong place by taking a "penalty drop" instead of taking the appropriate stroke and distance penalty, however this is moot because they learned with certainty that his ball was moved by an outside agency on the green.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by saltman

Where did he say he hit the wrong ball?  The way I read the situation he took a penalty drop because he never found his ball.  They only found 1 of the 2 balls.  The playing partner then played from the wrong place by taking a "penalty drop" instead of taking the appropriate stroke and distance penalty, however this is moot because they learned with certainty that his ball was moved by an outside agency on the green.

Sorry, I originally thought they were playing each others balls but now that I've reread the OP I get it.

However, I assumed the woods as described by the OP was a hazard, since he stated his playing partner took a penalty drop. If it was indeed a hazard, then when his ball was not near the area he saw it go in, he rightfully assumed it was in the hazard and took a legal drop. Once the mistake was realized he had already made a stroke at another ball, so it seems that was the ball in play.

If the woods was *not* a hazard, as you're implying, then that's not moot. It means the player did not proceed as the rules specify when a ball is lost outside a hazard. I don't think the rule that says "A ball moved by an outside agency can be replaced with no penalty" applies here, since that replacement must be done at the time the movement occurs - i.e., once a stroke is made at a different ball, and then you later find out the ball was moved by an outside agency, do you still have the option to go back and replay the original "moved" ball? I don't think so, but couldn't find a ruling either way...

[goblue107501]

This doesn't have anything to do with the score of the hole, but you are well within the rules to mark the ball in question and pick it up to identify it.  You can't clean it, and it must be placed back in the original position.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Sorry, I originally thought they were playing each others balls but now that I've reread the OP I get it.

However, I assumed the woods as described by the OP was a hazard, since he stated his playing partner took a penalty drop. If it was indeed a hazard, then when his ball was not near the area he saw it go in, he rightfully assumed it was in the hazard and took a legal drop. Once the mistake was realized he had already made a stroke at another ball, so it seems that was the ball in play.

If the woods was *not* a hazard, as you're implying, then that's not moot. It means the player did not proceed as the rules specify when a ball is lost outside a hazard. I don't think the rule that says "A ball moved by an outside agency can be replaced with no penalty" applies here, since that replacement must be done at the time the movement occurs - i.e., once a stroke is made at a different ball, and then you later find out the ball was moved by an outside agency, do you still have the option to go back and replay the original "moved" ball? I don't think so, but couldn't find a ruling either way...

I too misread the post and thought the second competitor was playing the OP ball.  But if not I would have thought the woods were not hazard (at least here on the home course they are just a part of the course) and he should have proceeded under the lost ball rule.  So the second competitor played from a "wrong place" if he didn't return to the tee after having a lost ball not in a hazard.  But if the woods are a hazard then he played correctly.

The first competitor (the OP) when he discovered he had played a wrong ball should have also returned to the tee (assuming he could not find his first ball) playing under the lost ball rule.  So I would think he would take 2 strokes for the "wrong ball" and 1 stroke for a lost ball.  But if the error ,wrong ball, is not corrected prior to make in stroke on the next teeing ground the rule says he is disqualified.

But the only thing I'm sure of is that I understand why the pros always ask a rules official.

[saltman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Sorry, I originally thought they were playing each others balls but now that I've reread the OP I get it.

However, I assumed the woods as described by the OP was a hazard, since he stated his playing partner took a penalty drop. If it was indeed a hazard, then when his ball was not near the area he saw it go in, he rightfully assumed it was in the hazard and took a legal drop. Once the mistake was realized he had already made a stroke at another ball, so it seems that was the ball in play.

If the woods was *not* a hazard, as you're implying, then that's not moot. It means the player did not proceed as the rules specify when a ball is lost outside a hazard. I don't think the rule that says "A ball moved by an outside agency can be replaced with no penalty" applies here, since that replacement must be done at the time the movement occurs - i.e., once a stroke is made at a different ball, and then you later find out the ball was moved by an outside agency, do you still have the option to go back and replay the original "moved" ball? I don't think so, but couldn't find a ruling either way...

I believe the rule states that the cut-off is teeing off the next hole.  He had no choice at the time but to play another ball, he simply did it at the wrong place.

[Fourputt]

One player (the OP) played a wrong ball .  Since his ball was apparently the one which was actually lost,  once the mistake was discovered, he should have returned to the tee and played again, adding 2 strokes for playing the wrong ball plus the stroke and distance for the lost ball.  Best possible case he would be lying 5 after putting the second ball in play.  In any event he did not make a bogey on the hole.

The player who dropped and played from where he thought his ball was lost played from a wrong place .  He should have returned to the tee under Rule 27-1, since he played before it was discovered that his companion was playing his ball.  He also played from a spot where he may have gained a significant advantage.  If so, he was required to return and correct his mistake.   At the very least he incurred both the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place and the stroke and distance for a lost ball.

This is a sterling example of why a player should mark his ball so as to be clearly identifiable.  Even in a casual round you can get into a real pickle by not taking the few seconds needed to put a mark on your ball.

[saltman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The player who dropped and played from where he thought his ball was lost played from a wrong place.  He should have returned to the tee under Rule 27-1, since he played before it was discovered that his companion was playing his ball.  He also played from a spot where he may have gained a significant advantage.  If so, he was required to return and correct his mistake.   At the very least he incurred both the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place and the stroke and distance for a lost ball.

After reviewing again because this annoyed me, the above is correct (I think), but I had to read not only 27-1, which allows for an exception for a ball moved by an outside agency.  I also had to read 15-3 and 20-7c and 15-5 to get there. The answer lies in that it is a question of fact and it was up to the second player to confirm that the OP did not play the wrong ball prior to playing a "substituted ball".  Ironically, although the ball was moved by an "outside agency" which by definition makes it "lost" the player in this case could NOT play a "provisional ball", unless it was known to have been moved and obviously unlikely to be recovered.  For example, some little kid runs out and grabs your ball from the middle of the fairway and you knew it was your ball.  But if he felt the OP may have hit his ball, he needed to mark the spot and verify before playing a second ball.

Moral of the story as others have suggested mark your ball and verify your mark before hitting.  Very easy mess to avoid.