Shifting trends on the PGA tour.

[mihi4]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Well, in football a wildcard team can win the whole thing, which plays more to your point of a one hit wonder, but to be in the money every week and win a major would just silence the critics.

That's true, but what is a wildcard team? According to answers.com:

A wild card team in football is a team that does not win its own division but makes the playoffs on the basis of having the best overall record of the remaining nondivisional winning teams.

So they had to do at least _very_ well to have the best overall record, without winning the division. To me, that's more to the "being constantly good" side.

I shouln't have started comparing football and golf, it's a different thing competing against one after the other or competing against >100 at the same time.

Quote:

but to be in the money every week and win a major would just silence the critics.

FULL ACK on this!

I just can't understand, _why_ there are critics in the first place?

YES, majors are the most important tournaments during the year.

YES, most of the players would really like to win one.

BUT...

It just says, that you have been the best player out of the 100something player field for 4 days on 1 course.

Being #1, specially in all 3 top categories round the world, shows, that you have been the best player of _all_ the golfers in the world trying to win in tournaments, bringing top results in most of the events you entered over quite a timestretch on quite a lot of different golf courses.

That's what I would call the best player in the world.

I hope Luke can manage a major in the future, but even if not, to me he's the outright deserved #1 player in the world at the moment.

greetings

michi

[Chilli Dipper]

I don't understand the negativity in this thread. It's all quite simple. We're seeing a trend in professional golf right now where players are not obsessed with length, and are playing to their individual strengths moreso than changing their games to gain a little distance. Matteo Manassero is ranked within the world's top 30 at age 18, doesn't fit the stereotype of being a young bomber, and doesn't appear to be concerned about it; it cracks me up when I hear so many "expert" analysts say that he won't become an elite player unless he adds 20 yards to his drives. Luke Donald is the best player in the world right now, not simply because he's merely the most consistently gold player in the last two years, but because the standard of his recent play is nearly incomprehensible. Outside of a missed cut at the Northern Trust Open, Luke hasn't finished outside of the top ten in any tournament since last September. That's nine consecutive months where Luke has been in contention to win every event he's entered, a streak only Tiger at his absolute best can match. He is one of four players with two major-tour wins in 2011; his two wins (a WGC and the flagship European tourney) are demonstrably better than Watson and Wilson's two PGA tour wins, and together are stronger than Schwartzel's Masters and Euro-sanctioned Joburg Open. He's accumulated 283.81 world ranking points so far this year; the next-most prolific player in that category, Schwartzel, is a full hundred points behind him. So I don't want to hear people complain that Luke Donald isn't a worthy number one, or that he isn't a dominant player. Sure, he's not Tiger Woods - Tiger Woods isn't even Tiger Woods anymore - but the run he's on right now is truly remarkable.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Chilli Dipper

I don't understand the negativity in this thread. It's all quite simple. We're seeing a trend in professional golf right now where players are not obsessed with length, and are playing to their individual strengths moreso than changing their games to gain a little distance. Matteo Manassero is ranked within the world's top 30 at age 18, doesn't fit the stereotype of being a young bomber, and doesn't appear to be concerned about it; it cracks me up when I hear so many "expert" analysts say that he won't become an elite player unless he adds 20 yards to his drives.

Luke Donald is the best player in the world right now, not simply because he's merely the most consistently gold player in the last two years, but because the standard of his recent play is nearly incomprehensible. Outside of a missed cut at the Northern Trust Open, Luke hasn't finished outside of the top ten in any tournament since last September. That's nine consecutive months where Luke has been in contention to win every event he's entered, a streak only Tiger at his absolute best can match. He is one of four players with two major-tour wins in 2011; his two wins (a WGC and the flagship European tourney) are demonstrably better than Watson and Wilson's two PGA tour wins, and together are stronger than Schwartzel's Masters and Euro-sanctioned Joburg Open. He's accumulated 283.81 world ranking points so far this year; the next-most prolific player in that category, Schwartzel, is a full hundred points behind him. So I don't want to hear people complain that Luke Donald isn't a worthy number one, or that he isn't a dominant player. Sure, he's not Tiger Woods - Tiger Woods isn't even Tiger Woods anymore - but the run he's on right now is truly remarkable.

Amen.  Luke Donald is the only player this year who seems to show up near the top of every leaderboard.  I've liked him for years and it's great to see him finally putting it all together.   There is certainly nobody else even close to deserving the number 1 ranking.

[uttexas]

I too like the trend. I appreciate watching golfers like Stricker and Donald dominate a course with strategic acumen and precision more than watching someone bomb it and overpower the rough.

[B of H]

I think you have to consider course conditions into this discussion.  If it was wet and windy this year more than previous years then the driving distance and other stats would be significantly effected.  Also, I don't think the groove rule changes things as much as people would like to believe but that is just my personal opinion.

over time I think sometimes shorter hitters get the leg up and vice versa.  If the trend was over 5+ years if not 10 then I think there would be a lot more validity to this argument/topic.

I think a lot of the younger players that are coming up are just not quite in their prime years yet and most of them are LONG so we'll see what happens I guess but i'd bet that in 5 years it's pretty evenly distrubuted between longer and shorter hitters in the top 10.

I also think it's important to note that the firm fairways on tour make even 7400 courses play significantly shorter and tighter than many people realize.  Unless they get heavy rains these guys are getting 20 to 50 yards or more of roll out on every fairway when they want it.  So even the shorter guys can hit 570 par 5's with a hybrid etc...

[walk18]

Quote:

Originally Posted by walk18

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If Donald could figure out how to get another 30 yards out of his driver he has a shot at really dominating (assuming it didn't hurt his iron play) for quite some time.

yeah then maybe he could become #1?

Other than for that 1 week, would you call his play this year "dominating"?

no, you're right, he's obviously a hack.

[newtogolf]

I think Donald is a great player and his OWGR ranking is well earned, but I was talking about dominating more in the way Tiger did, long term, not just a few weeks or months.

Quote:

no, you're right, he's obviously a hack.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by mihi4

That's true, but what is a wildcard team? According to answers.com:

A wild card team in football is a team that does not win its own division but makes the playoffs on the basis of having the best overall record of the remaining nondivisional winning teams.

So they had to do at least _very_ well to have the best overall record, without winning the division. To me, that's more to the "being constantly good" side.

I shouln't have started comparing football and golf, it's a different thing competing against one after the other or competing against >100 at the same time.

Quote:

FULL ACK on this!

I just can't understand, _why_ there are critics in the first place?

YES, majors are the most important tournaments during the year.

YES, most of the players would really like to win one.

BUT...

It just says, that you have been the best player out of the 100something player field for 4 days on 1 course.

Being #1, specially in all 3 top categories round the world, shows, that you have been the best player of _all_ the golfers in the world trying to win in tournaments, bringing top results in most of the events you entered over quite a timestretch on quite a lot of different golf courses.

That's what I would call the best player in the world.

I hope Luke can manage a major in the future, but even if not, to me he's the outright deserved #1 player in the world at the moment.

greetings

michi

I agree that Luke is number one and I believe that a major is right around the corner. I am not one of the critics, I am just pointing out the banter that surrounds the number 1 spot at the moment. Luke is consistently the most consistent and deserves the spot in my mind.  I like his game and especially love his ability to get up and down. His short game is so good he could get up and down from a jiffy-john.

[uttexas]

I think Donald is a great player and his OWGR ranking is well earned, but I was talking about dominating more in the way Tiger did, long term, not just a few weeks or months.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on what side of the fence you are on; An era of Tiger or Nicklaus-like domination is the exception to the usual trend.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think Donald is a great player and his OWGR ranking is well earned, but I was talking about dominating more in the way Tiger did, long term, not just a few weeks or months.

I was talking about winning wire to wire by several strokes. Nobody's had a dominating week like that in awhile. Call it parity or mediocrity, the result is the same.

I'm a huge fan of Luke Donald (former Mizuno fanboy here) and was voting for him when it wasn't politically correct to do so (on this site). I'm more than okay with his being #1, but even though his play has been very consistent, he hasn't been a runaway winner in any event since the Accenture. The best, yes, but dominating? Not in my opinion.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think Donald is a great player and his OWGR ranking is well earned, but I was talking about dominating more in the way Tiger did, long term, not just a few weeks or months.

I think without Tiger- or Jack-like distance, in these days it's pretty hard to truly dominate. Donald has obviously shown that ballstriking and a great short game can turn you into a top 10 machine, but he's well short of dominating.

[newtogolf]

That was my point, if he could hit his driver 30 yards more, he'd probably be the most complete player we've seen since Tiger.  The guys short game is incredible, but he can't take advantage of the long par 4's and 5's the way Tiger used to.

Originally Posted by jamo

I think without Tiger- or Jack-like distance, in these days it's pretty hard to truly dominate. Donald has obviously shown that ballstriking and a great short game can turn you into a top 10 machine, but he's well short of dominating.

[Chilli Dipper]

That was my point, if he could hit his driver 30 yards more, he'd probably be the most complete player we've seen since Tiger.  The guys short game is incredible, but he can't take advantage of the long par 4's and 5's the way Tiger used to.

That's a really obvious statement; if Luke gained 30 yards to his drive, he'd be the longest hitter in the game. The hypothetical player who is the best driver, ballstriker, scrambler, short game player, and putter all at once would be unbeatable, but that player doesn't exist and never will.

[B of H]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That was my point, if he could hit his driver 30 yards more, he'd probably be the most complete player we've seen since Tiger.  The guys short game is incredible, but he can't take advantage of the long par 4's and 5's the way Tiger used to.

well, i'm not so sure that's a cut and dry comparison and tiger can't even take the same advantage anymore.  the courses are more tricked out overall ala 'tiger proofed' and it seems like more tour stops grow out their rough and mow down greenside areas so overly aggressive shots get penalized more.  Plus, everyone is super aggressive these days despite it.  It's like they feel like they need to hit at every flag in order to compete...and who says that isnt' the case?  :)

Donald with more length would be even less accurate given simple geometry and he doesn't have the upright swing and strength to really be effective out of the rough.  He plays to his strengths extremely well and it's hard to say he'd be better with 30 yards extra and hitting out of the rough a few more times a round.  It's kind of like the old idea that long hitters don't have good short games and short hitters do...which doesn't have any validity in my mind.  It's more like the guys that are the least accurate yet compete at the same level as more accurate players have the better short games regardless of their length.  Long hitters get into more trouble and are forced to scramble even more sometimes etc...

what made tiger so dominant was how aggressive and inventive he was and how he could mentally manage that type of game under pressure.  He'd fire at flags from bunkers 200 yards out over water the whole way with a 6-iron and people would freak...now that stuff is relatively common.   I was reminded of how different the game was pre-tiger when I watched tin cup on golf channel recently, don johnson as a golf pro?  that seems silly now, it would be more of a young quarterback type guy probably, johnson was probably mid 40's at least back then.

[CG031]

Most of the guys you listed still hit the ball far, though. It may not be the longest players, but they still are in the middle of the pack generally outside of Donald.

And if it's a trend, then how do you explain Bubba's success this year? I don't really see a big trend honestly. It just so happens Donald has been playing some fantastic and consistent golf.

[michaeljames92]

At the end of the day, no matter how far you hit it, you still have to put the ball closer to the pin to make putts, especially on par 4's. This is why guys like donald and stricker are doing well. I suppose most of the time the guy who wins each week putts the best and probably doesn't hit it all that much better than than he does most weeks.

Originally Posted by CG031

Most of the guys you listed still hit the ball far, though. It may not be the longest players, but they still are in the middle of the pack generally outside of Donald.

And if it's a trend, then how do you explain Bubba's success this year? I don't really see a big trend honestly. It just so happens Donald has been playing some fantastic and consistent golf.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by Chilli Dipper

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That was my point, if he could hit his driver 30 yards more, he'd probably be the most complete player we've seen since Tiger.  The guys short game is incredible, but he can't take advantage of the long par 4's and 5's the way Tiger used to.

That's a really obvious statement; if Luke gained 30 yards to his drive, he'd be the longest hitter in the game.

Technically, he would be the 3rd longest!

[bunkerputt]

Wasn't there a groove change that limited the benefit to the bomb-and-gouge style of play?  I wouldn't be surprised if it actually worked....

Regarding Donald as dominating....  True.  He may be dominating the numbers game, the money game, the scoring game, and the winning game.  But is he dominating in our hearts?