Is there a master hand in a golf swing ?

[OCEANDJJACK]

If I played more, and practiced more, I would be most likely a better ball striker than they.  If they didn't practice, and played as little as I do, I would beat them hands down.

[Hoganwoods]

I cannot believe Erik hasn't stopped the madness yet, but I eagerly await the outcome to all of this.

[mdl]

Wait, now you're telling us you're God's gift to amateur golfers and hardly ever play or practice?

Anyway, I was just pointing out that what you're saying is just provably false.  You keep referencing the classic great golfers and claim they learned the hands, arms, shoulders sequence.  Well, I think Snead counts as a great classic golfer.  Watch this video:

Notice how he doesn't do anything vaguely resembling what you claim.  The driving force up until P6 or so (when the club is parallel to the ground on the down swing) is all from the legs, hips and core.  Obviously the shoulders, arms, and hands are involved, but they're obviously more along for the ride than not until pretty close to impact.  Watch from 0:05-0:09 or so.  If you think that backs up what you're saying you're lying to yourself in a really pathetic way.

Or maybe you get a kick out of getting a rise out of forum members and this is all a ruse and we're the fools here?

[OCEANDJJACK]

I don't need for others to say I am right, or wrong.  I am right.  You are confused.  I don't need you to believe anything I say.  I know what I know, and I am trying to share what I know to be true.  You can easily test what I have put down in writing.  Don't prejudge without taking a hard look and trying it out for yourself.  There is no other way for you to judge the merits of what I have presented.  You can't simply say I don't know what I am talking about.  That make you an idiot.

BTW, I predict that Tiger will not break Jack's major wins record.  Why, because the methods he uses to swing will take it's toll on him physically.  His swing is, in my opinion, dangerous to his physical well being.

[David in FL]

If I played more, and practiced more, I would be most likely a better ball striker than they.  If they didn't practice, and played as little as I do, I would beat them hands down.

Jack/Patrick, Pls make sure you use the quote function when you respond or we don't know who you're specifically talking too. It's a lot more funny if we can put your responses into context. Thks. Carry on.....

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

If I played more, and practiced more, I would be most likely a better ball striker than they.  If they didn't practice, and played as little as I do, I would beat them hands down.

If I played less, and practiced less, and gave up the game for 35yrs - and came back to this thread in the year 2047.  And tried to followed your advice.  I'm sorry to say... But I'd still think you're crazy.

1.) Your advice has no video or photos to help the average golfer understand what the hell you are talking about.

2.) Your method of trying to get folks to buy into what you are saying is unique - but poorly done.

a.) First don't write 20 paragraphs of text for your first post.  Keep it simple.

b.) Use visual aids (videos and photos) to help plant the seed.

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z.) Stop while you're ahead (errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr behind).

[OCEANDJJACK]

You are missing the point.  You cannot look at a video and know what that man is feeling.  You don't know that his entire swing began with the swinging of the clubhead.  He swings by feel, not by mechanics.  You are trying to analyse from the outside looking in.  Golf does not work that way.  Many golfers like TexMex had odd swings.  You could not know it by reviewing the video, what he was feeling in his hands and how the remainder of his body responded to his pulse on the clubhead.  How do you think Sam got into that position at the top?  By swing mechanics.  No, absolutely not.  He had the soul of the in his hands, and the body followed.  You just don't get it.

[OCEANDJJACK]

I can guarantee that no one has ever benefited by watching golf videos.  What you see is not an indication of how it was actually created.  What you are viewing in any golf sequence is not a bunch of positions that were rehearsed.  That is not a swing.  It is just a lot of pieces without a soul.  The soul of the swing must be felt as one continuous motion, led by the clubhead, with the body following.  Positions, angles, swing planes, and all the like is rubbish.  The point is that the swing is created in the left hand, arm and shoulder.  The rest of the body follows the clubhead.  No one hear knows how to get the clubhead to lead the swing.  Read my posts and become enlightened.

[OCEANDJJACK]

BTW, who are you to tell anyone how much to post, when to post, or whatever.  Don't you know better than that.  Grow up!

[mdl]

On the original (5 yo) question, I do think that's interesting.  There was some discussion of that on another thread a little while ago where I read a quote from some famous old golfer to effect of the right hand dominates the swing and the left is along for the ride (for a right handed golfer).  I've also read lots of stuff about how people have found success at least feeling like they're leading with the left arm (relative to the right arm, not the whole body).  I'd read more things to that effect when I started and so biased towards that, but have started thinking more about letting my right hand feel more active too (partly through the push the club away with the right hand thing Erik always talks about, but what feels like the biggest effect of that actually is it encourages my right arm/hand to be more active in closing the face and finishing the swing, though I'm not there yet).

To hijack the thread (well, probably not, but I'll try), what's the feeling of relative activeness of right versus left arm/hand for you?  Presumably this feeling can be different for different good players based on their handedness, which side they play golf from, what they emphasized when learning, what other sports they played before golf, what parts of their body are strongest, how flexible they are in different areas, etc.  I'm interested to hear what others' feel in the swing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

The great players of the past, many of them, started out as caddies.  They learned to swing the club, without lessons.  They found their way by swinging the clubhead.

Those caddies learned to play the game by mimicking the better players at the club. Which you've said not to do.

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

I can guarantee that no one has ever benefited by watching golf videos.

Sure.

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

You are another idiot.  Grow up, and soon, I hope!

And if you're wondering why you're in the penalty box, this is it Patrick (or Patrick-wannabe).

[OCEANDJJACK]

The definition of an Idiot is an individual with a twelve year old mentality.  Surely my comments did not stretch the truth.  Just read what these unkindly individuals have posted regarding my ideas.  BTW, they are not my ideas.  I have discovered how these ideas should be implemented.  Ernest Jones did not go far enough or go into enough detail in his book.  I have filled in the missing details.  Don't say it is wrong, it is different.  Don't judge without giving it a try.  If you prejudge, then you are acting like a twelve year old!

[OCEANDJJACK]

Notice that Sam is way past parallel at the top of his backswing.  Does that make him a poor golfer?  Form is what it is.  If the swing is a real swing, the body will follow, and execute correctly.  If you try to connect the dots with a swing by mechanics video tape, you will be doomed to failure.  The swinging of the clubhead caused the body to respond and attain all the golfing positions without trying to rehearse them.  They just happen.

Since you can't see yourself as you swing, all you can do is play by feel, and look at where the ball ends up.  If you played everyday, you would get the chance to try different things.  You must pay great attention to how you set up, how you started the swing, and how you ended up.  Where did the ball go?  If you do something right, get a great result, make sure you know why.

If you don't agree with anything I have posted, please be specific and tell me what you think, and not call me names, or post stupid videos.  So, you want to make fun!  That makes you a twelve year old in my opinion.

[OCEANDJJACK]

Madness?  Madness?  No, not madness.  The folks on this site can't stand to hear another point of view without casting rude remarks in my direction.  When I call a spade, a spade, they can't take it.  If you act like a twelve year old, then what should I call you...a genius?

[OCEANDJJACK]

What you should feel in the swing is the clubhead.  It should be pulling your left arm and shoulder back and up.  You need to know how to infuse energy into it by waggling, then giving a nice shove to get it started back.

On the downswing, I feel the left arm pulling the right arm down and out towards the target.  I try to use my entire body to maintain my balance.  I let me feet and legs move along with the left arm pulling.  The left arm leads in my swing going back and coming down.  I feel that my center of gravity stays centered between my feet.  I turn in response to my arm swing.  My spine angle remains steady during the backswing up to and including impact with the ball.  After that I feel myself turning, facing the target, standing tall.

[newtogolf]

You come on this site claiming to have discovered the secret to the golf swing that no one else has ever discussed in a book.  You discredit all current forms of teaching as well as learning from videos.  You do all this, yet offer no proof except some poorly worded hard to understand instructions and anecdotal stories about your own golf game as a 9 handicap.  Where's the video, lets see your swing in action, let's see the ball flight and distance?

Anyone can come onto a internet forum and pose as an expert but if you want to be taken seriously you have to do more than represent yourself as a self-professed expert and btw what's your obsession with 12 year olds all about?

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

Madness?  Madness?  No, not madness.  The folks on this site can't stand to hear another point of view without casting rude remarks in my direction.  When I call a spade, a spade, they can't take it.  If you act like a twelve year old, then what should I call you...a genius?

[Ernest Jones]

Wait a minute!!!!!!! I wrote a book??????

[broomhandle]

I think I agree with much of what Jack is saying although it's presented so arrogantly and confrontationally it's hard to be sure.

The idea that learning golf should be as much or more about holistically feeling a golf SWING as learning correct positions and sub-actions is old and has been very popular over golf history. I think it was Bobby Jones who said his favorite golf advice was 'no matter what happens keep on swinging the club'

I also have literally 'last kid picked in gym class' athletic ability. I learned in the 1970's and failed completely with the standard teaching books then. I found some older 'swing the clubhead' type books and was able to get down to breaking 80 on easy courses. I'm certainly not going to tell + handicappers they don't know anything but I also think that other clods like me might do better with what Jack is broadly presenting than trying to swing like a tour pro.

The argument is a lot like the one in  'Plane Truth'. 1-plane may be better for pro's and jocks but 2-plane may be better for the less well endowed and still take some people pretty darn high.

The idea of the hands leading is nonsense if taken as a factual mechanical sequence. It should be taken as a feel and as a learning sequence. Waggle the club. Swing the arms a bit. Swing the arms until the body has to turn. Let the body turn support the hand and arm swing rather than dominating it. I KNOW the lower body MUST start down first but 90% of the time I'm better off forgetting it and feeling like I swing my arms and the body shift and turn just happens.