Gigagolf Golf Clubs

[dkolo]

From a pure capitalistic point of view I would say thy the market will deal with this correctly over time.. There is a big difference in my mind when a knock of is being sold with the originator having no retribution avenue and when there is a huge manufacturing operation being run and the big corporations have millions they can spend in taking the offender to court and putting a stop to this "stealing" if you want to call it that.

Like I mentioned since I'm not vested in the industry, ie I don't earn a living dealing with these big manufactures or am sponsored by them, then from a moral stand point do I really have an obligation to society to help in bringing this knock off down? This is what I question, and that is why making this issue a moral ground issue is not correct in my opinion.

I mean, it's a moral decision whether or not you want to characterize it that way. We're just talking about the morality of intellectual property protections as opposed to the morality of killing or stealing tangible things, which is what we typically consider when we label questions as "moral."

Why don't these companies sue and shut down gigagolf? I don't know enough about IP law to answer that. My gut reaction can't believe that Taylormade can't get after them for trade dress violations, but that's an uneducated reaction. Patentwise, I don't know what these companies have been able to patent or not because they might be failing the "non-obviousness" requirement. Sort of how Apple can't sue someone for making their phone smaller and thinner; it's an obvious direction of the field. But whether we (society / law / whatever) have provided the means to give the major manufacturers recourse against gigagolf is a side question. The real question is whether people think that what knockoff producers is acceptable, especially in light of what it can do for the golf club business long term. The sustainability of it, if you will. I don't work in golf, but I'd like to continue enjoying manufacturers having incentive to push technology forward and make the game more interesting. I think the only way to do that is by shunning knockoffs. You may disagree, and you're welcome to.

[dkolo]

Every thing you do requires a moral decision.

Anyway, being bored at lunch probably is leading me to be

Better said in fewer words. Chapeau.

[acerimusdux]

Why don't these companies sue and shut down gigagolf? I don't know enough about IP law to answer that.

I think it's because Gigagolf isn't actually borrowing any innovative technology from them. If you look at the clubs, they are mostly using some design cues to give a visual resemblence to similarly positioned clubs, but not enough to violate any laws. You can't patent making drivers black and white, for example.

I honestly have no problem with what Gigagolf is doing here. The truth is, there has been no major technological innovation in golf irons in recent years; most of the things that can be done with an iron, that will actually impact performance, have been thought of long ago. But a small company like Gigagolf maybe lacks the marketing budget to be able to create 8 different lines of irons and then market them in a way that  consumers will recocognize the differences in all of these and be able to figure out which one is right for them. Instead, they use these visual cues so that the newcomer looking at their website can recognize instantly where some of these models fit in.

So visually, the TRX irons are similar to various Taylormade models, the GX to Callaway, the Verve,  P3, and C9 to Pings, the MPX to the Cobra Amp, etc. But this isn't stealing technology. The MPX looks like the Cobra mainly because it's orange, for example. The powerslot is different from Taylomade's speed slot (and slots are not an original Taylormade idea, they've been around since at least the 1970s). If they are copying some design trends within the limits of what's legal, so are all of these bigger companies. They all copy popular design ideas.

Do people avoid buying the Callaway Supersoft, because it's a "knock-off" of the Wilson Duo?

With woods and especially drivers, there have been more technology improvements in recent years, but even there, I think the quality is starting to get close. When it comes to performance, even the lower cost manufacturers are now starting to run into the USGA limits.  Sometimes the biggest advantage of more expensive clubs might be that they may sound or feel better on impact.

[dkolo]

I think it's because Gigagolf isn't actually borrowing any innovative technology from them. If you look at the clubs, they are mostly using some design cues to give a visual resemblence to similarly positioned clubs, but not enough to violate any laws. You can't patent making drivers black and white, for example.   I honestly have no problem with what Gigagolf is doing here. The truth is, there has been no major technological innovation in golf irons in recent years; most of the things that can be done with an iron, that will actually impact performance, have been thought of long ago. But a small company like Gigagolf maybe lacks the marketing budget to be able to create 8 different lines of irons and then market them in a way that  consumers will recocognize the differences in all of these and be able to figure out which one is right for them. Instead, they use these visual cues so that the newcomer looking at their website can recognize instantly where some of these models fit in. So visually, the TRX irons are similar to various Taylormade models, the GX to Callaway, the Verve,  P3, and C9 to Pings, the MPX to the Cobra Amp, etc. But this isn't stealing technology. The MPX looks like the Cobra mainly because it's orange, for example. The powerslot is different from Taylomade's speed slot (and slots are not an original Taylormade idea, they've been around since at least the 1970s). If they are copying some design trends within the limits of what's legal, so are all of these bigger companies. They all copy popular design ideas.  Do people avoid buying the Callaway Supersoft, because it's a "knock-off" of the Wilson Duo? With woods and especially drivers, there have been more technology improvements in recent years, but even there, I think the quality is starting to get close. When it comes to performance, even the lower cost manufacturers are now starting to run into the USGA limits.  Sometimes the biggest advantage of more expensive clubs might be that they may sound or feel better on impact.

I think that's a very generous interpretation of what gigagolf does, but even so, it's hard not to construe all of that as saying that they're coopting the goodwill that the famous brands have built up through their design history, reputation, and marketing. By the nature of their business model, they need to, well parasite would be a loaded term, but they need to have others laying out interesting designs, building up interest among consumers, and showing how well their products perform in order for gigagolf to then come in and apply their design cues so that consumers can think, "wow, I know how great those Mizunos or Callaways or whatever work, and these guys are telling me they can get me into those for a fraction of the price." I don't see why we should encourage that kind of behavior. They're not creating anything.

[wmwalton]

Knock off companies have been in the American economy for a very long time.  As a matter of fact anyone typing or reading this post on a Compaq, Dell or HP computer is using a clone.  Once upon a time the only pcs made were by IBM.  Cloning forced them to spin off the pc marketing division to Lenovo.  Now to the meat of the post.  Most working people I know do not have $600 to $1000 to spend for top name clubs.  There are many weekend duffers like me who simply need affordable clubs to enjoy the game of golf.  After all capitalism is what built this country.  Look at any major industry and you will find some cloning in every one of them.  What are you driving down the highway Chrysler, Ford, GM or something built in Japan?

[mmoan2]

Knock off companies have been in the American economy for a very long time.  As a matter of fact anyone typing or reading this post on a Compaq, Dell or HP computer is using a clone.  Once upon a time the only pcs made were by IBM.  Cloning forced them to spin off the pc marketing division to Lenovo.  Now to the meat of the post.  Most working people I know do not have $600 to $1000 to spend for top name clubs.  There are many weekend duffers like me who simply need affordable clubs to enjoy the game of golf.  After all capitalism is what built this country.  Look at any major industry and you will find some cloning in every one of them.  What are you driving down the highway Chrysler, Ford, GM or something built in Japan?

You forgot to mention Microsoft as well... however (and we're really getting into esoteric philosophical-type discourse here) market saturation of "clone" products in PCs and the like has basically wiped the original manufacturers from existence. Lenovos are a small fraction of the PC market, whereas you can buy any number of name-brand clubs in any golf store. In fact, they don't even distribute clones at major name golf stores for the most part. I have to believe that if Gigagolf tried to distribute their products at Golfsmith, TM, Callaway, and whomever else would sure the pants off of them and win. Interesting topic to research along with thirty other things I don't have time to read up on...

Also, you can find name-brand clubs on Ebay, GlobalGolf, etc. for a similar price to Gigagolf clubs. I purchased the Pursuit MB iron set from Gigagolf two years ago with upgraded shafts and grips for around $325. Now, I'm about ready to buy a set of mint condition Rocketbladez Tour irons either on Ebay or from a friend for $400, whomever goes cheaper.

Finally, two wrongs don't make a right. If you believe that it's morally unacceptable to endorse a product because you find their business practices suspect, don't justify it by saying that's what people do with cars and PCs. The means are there to buy name-brand products for a reasonable price if you look hard enough. Good luck doing the same with PCs. I live in Phoenix, and I tend to defer to Ping products just because I want to support the local economy as much as possible. I also happen to love my G15 driver more than everything on earth except my wife. I love win-win situations!

[merdon133]

I picked up a set of GX922 last fall and as a beginner liked them so far, but I never seem to hit them correctly sometimes my 7I goes 150 yards sometimes 130yards yet the hits feel the same again it's gotta be me. But today I was hitting really bad and went to the PGASS and tried a few clubs ( Taylor Made speedblade and Ping G25) and I was actually shocked at the results. The PGASS guy told me to grab my 7I to compare and here are the results (ave of 10 shots) steel shafts-

GX922 Giga golf - Club speed 91, ball speed 109 launch 16 spin 2019 carry 152 total 158

Taylor Made Speedblade - Club speed 89 ball speed 117 launch 16 spin 2196 carry 162 total 183

Ping G25 club speed 94 ball speed 117 launch 25 spin 2900 carry 179 total 183

Is this eye candy, IDK. But it makes me wonder

I haven't had any complaints with my Giga golf clubs besides the stock grips and if the custom setup is correct or not. I know I felt the difference between good and bad shots with the TM and Ping, again it could be eye candy.

Long story short glad I purchased the GX922 to start, but I want a nicer set to improve on

[onthehunt526]

I thought about getting the pursuit c510s... my game isn't good enough right now for me m510s but the custom fitting is good and you get a nice bag with a purchase over $300... so I'd be will to maybe pick up a set

[acerimusdux]

I picked up a set of GX922 last fall and as a beginner liked them so far, but I never seem to hit them correctly sometimes my 7I goes 150 yards sometimes 130yards yet the hits feel the same again it's gotta be me. But today I was hitting really bad and went to the PGASS and tried a few clubs ( Taylor Made speedblade and Ping G25) and I was actually shocked at the results. The PGASS guy told me to grab my 7I to compare and here are the results (ave of 10 shots) steel shafts-

GX922 Giga golf - Club speed 91, ball speed 109 launch 16 spin 2019 carry 152 total 158

Taylor Made Speedblade - Club speed 89 ball speed 117 launch 16 spin 2196 carry 162 total 183

Ping G25 club speed 94 ball speed 117 launch 25 spin 2900 carry 179 total 183

Is this eye candy, IDK. But it makes me wonder

I haven't had any complaints with my Giga golf clubs besides the stock grips and if the custom setup is correct or not. I know I felt the difference between good and bad shots with the TM and Ping, again it could be eye candy.

Long story short glad I purchased the GX922 to start, but I want a nicer set to improve on

A lot of that is going to be differences in loft. Even the GX922 6 iron has more loft (31 degrees) than the TaylorMade Speedblade 7 iron (30.5). Here are the 7 iron lofts:

30.5 TM Speedblade

32.0 Ping G25

35.0 GX922

[bassplayer7770]

I've ordered from Gigagolf in the past. Overall, the product quality seems fine. However, I came to the realization they did not build the irons to the specs I had ordered. They basically sent me a standard set when I had ordered less than standard length and 2 degree upright lie adjustment. They took the clubs back and did the work, so their customer service is fine. In short, my only suggestion is to make sure they actually built the clubs to your specs. Another company I would suggest checking out is Diamond Tour Golf.

[onthehunt526]

I picked up a set of GX922 last fall and as a beginner liked them so far, but I never seem to hit them correctly sometimes my 7I goes 150 yards sometimes 130yards yet the hits feel the same again it's gotta be me. But today I was hitting really bad and went to the PGASS and tried a few clubs ( Taylor Made speedblade and Ping G25) and I was actually shocked at the results. The PGASS guy told me to grab my 7I to compare and here are the results (ave of 10 shots) steel shafts- GX922 Giga golf - Club speed 91, ball speed 109 launch 16 spin 2019 carry 152 total 158 Taylor Made Speedblade - Club speed 89 ball speed 117 launch 16 spin 2196 carry 162 total 183 Ping G25 club speed 94 ball speed 117 launch 25 spin 2900 carry 179 total 183 Is this eye candy, IDK. But it makes me wonder  I haven't had any complaints with my Giga golf clubs besides the stock grips and if the custom setup is correct or not. I know I felt the difference between good and bad shots with the TM and Ping, again it could be eye candy. Long story short glad I purchased the GX922 to start, but I want a nicer set to improve on

The Ping has an awfully high launch angle for a 7I... you want your launch angle with your irons to be around 50-60% of your loft closer to 60 with your longer irons... if you are consistent with your GigaGolf GX922 irons I would stick with them for a while... On a personal note I've thought of picking up a Pursuit Forged set... but I'm playing Tour Edge Exotics (less my putter hybrid and wedges (wedges are Tour Edge though))... and I love them thinking about upgrading though, but you also have to remember about the newer O.E.M. clubs is they are very and I stress VERY strong lofted most 7-iron are the loft of a 5-iron 40 years ago, a 5.5-iron 20 years ago and a 6-iron ten years ago... the lowest effective loft of a PW is 44° but that's just my physics mind talking...

[LBlack14]

I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but in tennis the pros play whatever equipment they want which is then painted to look like a particular racket.  For example Sampras allegedly used the Wilson Pro Staff (a really hot item during his career because Sampras "used it") but it was actually a prince model painted like a pro staff with custom weights.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn there are alot of pros playing gear that is other gear with "titlest" painted on it.  Might not be the same though.  In tennis you use whatever you want and they paint it to match your endorsement deal, generally.

Pete....is that you? Any hard facts to back this up? I'm sure one company's just gonna stand by and let somebody paint over their name. A head cover is one thing, but what you're sayin' sounds like a total embellishment.. What good is a fitting to a 25 capper with a non repeatable swing. Start with lessons, then go from there I say. I'm not against fitting for fine tuning something that is somewhat tuned in.

[acerimusdux]

What good is a fitting to a 25 capper with a non repeatable swing. Start with lessons, then go from there I say. I'm not against fitting for fine tuning something that is somewhat tuned in.

If you have no need yet for a dynamic fitting yet, a static fitting (fitting to your height, wrist to floor, hand size, swing speed), which is what you can do online with any of these retailers (like gigagolf--fitting length, lie, grip size, shaft flex) is still a useful place to start. At least then you know you have clubs that would fit you well for a "typical" good swing, which is probably what you are working towards.

And anyone who thinks you can get just as good a deal with pre-owned brand name stuff hasn't looked at the certified pre-owned section of the Gigagolf site. Just a heads up, they are currently having their annual clearance on pre-owned items, with some spectacular bargains there, many on "almost new" clubs.

[StacktActor]

I don't think anyone should go as far as to say clones are "better" than OEM clubs but certain brands can make a good case for being just a good. I mean, I'm seeing some people on here saying "you don't see pros using Giga clubs and don't give the endorsements for big OEM's excuse....." and so on. Well, seriously, the main reason they're not used by pros is because the market space for "top end gear" is already full and controlled by capitalist giants that small companies like Gigagolf and Pinemeadow can't compete against financially. So, these companies take a different approach to the market. They HAVE to offer some kind of quality, at a good value, in order to find their place in the market. Gigagolf even has an article about this on their website if you want to read it. So, the inexpensive clubs are a result of a market strategy. No R&D;, no marketing, no endorsement fees, no middle man. Same materials used in the clubs. Exactly the same. Do your research folks. So, to say what I just said in reverse for a little clarity, pros use OEM's because OEM's reach out to them as a business strategy. They need pros endorsements to help justify the high price of the clubs they sell, but at the same time, the endorsement fees paid to the player contribute to the increased price of the clubs. They have the capital to taylor every pro to they're specific specs, at no charge of course. Do they do this for you? Nope. They just show you the brand, the player, and the clubs sell themselves. Obviously, there's profit in the strategy. It works. But you need the capital, which these companies have. Gigagolf and it's counterparts don't. But the actual off the shelf specs are the exact same, material, angles, flex, grips. All the same. So in conclusion, are these clones just as good as the OEMs clubs? For the non-professional, which is pretty much all of is here, they sure are.

[toomanymatts]

hello there Gigagolfers...I am very much a beginner, but tested out a set of AP2s from Titleist over the weekend and quite liked the way they felt.

They had a pro on hand who changed a few shafts and whatnot for me, and was generally quite helpful.

The issue: the price.  I may get out a half dozen times a year, and maybe about the same to the driving range, and the ~3k I was quoted just isn't worthwhile.

Explained that to the pro later the same evening, and bought him a drink or five to thank him for his time and help.

I am working in Vietnam at the moment, so don't really have access to a particularly active second hand market either, so that is not really an option.

I did notice that for $70, Giga will ship worldwide, and has a big Fall sale on at present, so I could feasibly have a very decent set of clubs for a few hundred, which seems much more in line with the sort of investment I'd be willing to make.

As such, I am kind of curious to know which of the irons there plays most like those AP2s that I was messing around with over the weekend.

Any help greatly appreciated....

[StacktActor]

hello there Gigagolfers...I am very much a beginner, but tested out a set of AP2s from Titleist over the weekend and quite liked the way they felt.  They had a pro on hand who changed a few shafts and whatnot for me, and was generally quite helpful.  The issue: the price.  I may get out a half dozen times a year, and maybe about the same to the driving range, and the ~3k I was quoted just isn't worthwhile. Explained that to the pro later the same evening, and bought him a drink or five to thank him for his time and help. I am working in Vietnam at the moment, so don't really have access to a particularly active second hand market either, so that is not really an option.  I did notice that for $70, Giga will ship worldwide, and has a big Fall sale on at present, so I could feasibly have a very decent set of clubs for a few hundred, which seems much more in line with the sort of investment I'd be willing to make.  As such, I am kind of curious to know which of the irons there plays most like those AP2s that I was messing around with over the weekend. Any help greatly appreciated....

First off, I haven't hit the AP2's so I can't be for sure as to what they feel like, but your best bet is simply to match the specs of the AP2's as best you can with a set from Gigagolf. So basically find the set the matches the lofts, look, shafts, and grips....at least as closely as possible. I would say total weight of the clubs is likely important also. Not sure if you have heard of Pinemeadow Golf but I believe their most recent set is suppose to be clones of the AP2's. The ZR 3.0 set if I remember correctly.... My irons are from Pinemeadow and my hybrid, wood, driver, and wedges are from Giga. Both companies make good clubs, just in case you needed a reference.

[toomanymatts]

thanks for that, and yeah, tried a spec-for-spec comparison and tried to line up 'best matches'.

Still trying to digest the data. Nothing lines up exactly of course...so now it's a matter of prioritising whether a degree of X is more important than a degree of Y.

Interesting that you mention that about Pine Meadows. I did some reading up on them as well, and seems that their clubs don't seem to get the same level of quality-love that the Gigas do, which is why I opted for that side...I'm kind of a quality/value/bang for buck guy.

Still, which Pine Meadow clubs are you refering to as the AP2 clones, it's worth having a look.

[toomanymatts]

Still, which Pine Meadow clubs are you refering to as the AP2 clones, it's worth having a look.

oops, sorry, the zr3, you said that, my bad!