First Golf Lesson with Ex-Tour Pro

[Spyder]

I had my first 1 hour lesson yesterday with a professional who has been on tour for a while and is now a resident pro at a local country club. I bought some custom clubs (clones of the Callaway X-24s) off of him that he had built and fitted perfectly for me. In exchange, he offered me a free lesson.

One of the first things that he wanted to work on was my ball striking with irons. I have always been pretty accurate with irons, and my range with a 4 iron is around 180. The 180 is fairly short considering my loft with the 4i had his jaw drop.

Apparently, I had never realized that I -never- leave divots on what I personally call my "good shots". He pointed out that this was a major flaw in my swing, and that if I learn to leave divots by adjusting my downsing's plane - I could essentially improve by 20 yards on each iron in the bag, on top of gaining much more accuracy/control.

Is this "scooping" motion really that terrible that I should be restructuring my entire swing to begin to leave divots and almost learn how to golf all over again? Or should I stay where I am at, with almost no slice ( a slight draw actually ) and work on my chip, pitch and flop shots? These 3 shots are my weakness and I am tired of the 7i hit-n-runs.

Averaging 150 7i, 180 4i, 250-275 (depending on Fairway) Driver.

The pro pointed out several flaws, of course because I am self-taught, but the divot subject had him laughing. He couldn't understand how I taught myself to swing so non-conventional, yet make it work as well as it does for my own game. The reason for my divot-less swing, according to him, is my "robotic stiff left arm" (I am right-handed). He wants me to mirror my back swing to my follow-through and un-hinge my left elbow at release. This can be a tough thing to do especially after being told that my swing plane is off and I am hitting up on the ball.


Overall question : To Divot or Not To Divot at this point in my game? Should I restructure my swing in accordance with his advice, or keep working on my own game and find another pro that will be willing to simply adjust what I am already doing?

PS: I am personally around a 10 HDCP at this current time. I did go up 1-2 strokes recently.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I had my first 1 hour lesson yesterday with a professional who has been on tour for a while and is now a resident pro at a local country club. I bought some custom clubs (clones of the Callaway X-24s) off of him that he had built and fitted perfectly for me. In exchange, he offered me a free lesson.

One of the first things that he wanted to work on was my ball striking with irons. I have always been pretty accurate with irons, and my range with a 4 iron is around 180. The 180 is fairly short considering my loft with the 4i had his jaw drop.

Apparently, I had never realized that I -never- leave divots on what I personally call my "good shots". He pointed out that this was a major flaw in my swing, and that if I learn to leave divots by adjusting my downsing's plane - I could essentially improve by 20 yards on each iron in the bag, on top of gaining much more accuracy/control.

Is this "scooping" motion really that terrible that I should be restructuring my entire swing to begin to leave divots and almost learn how to golf all over again? Or should I stay where I am at, with almost no slice ( a slight draw actually ) and work on my chip, pitch and flop shots? These 3 shots are my weakness and I am tired of the 7i hit-n-runs.

Averaging 150 7i, 180 4i, 250-275 (depending on Fairway) Driver.

The pro pointed out several flaws, of course because I am self-taught, but the divot subject had him laughing. He couldn't understand how I taught myself to swing so non-conventional, yet make it work as well as it does for my own game. The reason for my divot-less swing, according to him, is my "robotic stiff left arm" (I am right-handed). He wants me to mirror my back swing to my follow-through and un-hinge my left elbow at release. This can be a tough thing to do especially after being told that my swing plane is off and I am hitting up on the ball.

Overall question: To Divot or Not To Divot at this point in my game? Should I restructure my swing in accordance with his advice, or keep working on my own game and find another pro that will be willing to simply adjust what I am already doing?

PS: I am personally around a 10 HDCP at this current time. I did go up 1-2 strokes recently.

I consistently shoot in the mid 70's and I never left divot's because I scooped/flipped... I am restructuring my entire swing.

[augafan48]

To me it really depends on how much better you want to get.  What I'm saying is that if you're goal is to get down to scratch, play from championship tees, etc., then yes you're going to need to learn how to hit down on the ball with a divot.  The distance on shorter courses doesn't show up much because the distance you hit the ball is fine to play most courses, but the big reason is spin.  Hitting down on the ball creates more iron spin, thus longer shots.  The spin created is also needed to hold greens on a course with fast greens, etc.

So essentially, if you're happy with your game where it is at, you can still improve some with your current swing.  But if you're looking to get down to scratch, and compete in tournaments (depending on how old you are?), then a restructuring of the swing may be necessary.

In my opinion, learning to hit down more on the ball shouldn't effect your swing that much, just more weight on your left side through the ball, and practice with the thought of striking down.  Good luck!

[BallStriker]

Divot

If you have the ballstriking talent to get good results by picking the ball off the turf, you will only get better by striking down and through imho.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by augafan48

To me it really depends on how much better you want to get.  What I'm saying is that if you're goal is to get down to scratch, play from championship tees, etc., then yes you're going to need to learn how to hit down on the ball with a divot.  The distance on shorter courses doesn't show up much because the distance you hit the ball is fine to play most courses, but the big reason is spin.  Hitting down on the ball creates more iron spin, thus longer shots.  The spin created is also needed to hold greens on a course with fast greens, etc.

So essentially, if you're happy with your game where it is at, you can still improve some with your current swing.  But if you're looking to get down to scratch, and compete in tournaments (depending on how old you are?), then a restructuring of the swing may be necessary.

In my opinion, learning to hit down more on the ball shouldn't effect your swing that much, just more weight on your left side through the ball, and practice with the thought of striking down.  Good luck!

Thanks a lot for the insight! I've just recently caught the bug and I'm 26. I'm not necessarily going out to play tournaments, but I do love the game enough to where I actually enjoy practicing and playing. When I was younger I was a stand-out football player but got hurt. To this day, I hurt 24/7 non-stop due to a condition called "spondylolisthesis" with a herniated disc and a pinched sciatic nerve - which was caused by a nasty hit in my football glory days. Golf is actually the only physical activity that does not hurt as bad, and it's obviously a sport that I can play well into my 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s (that is if the big man upstairs lets me do so).

So anyway long story short, I really appreciate the advice. I think I will work on this a bit on my own and focus on hitting down on the ball, rather than the swooping/scooping/flipping motion before/under/through the ball like I have been doing. I'll most likely get another lesson soon, but probably on my perimeter green shots. I think if I can set up for some nice 6-10 ft. putts by working on my flops/chips/pitches - I would easily shave 5-8 strokes.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

Divot

If you have the ballstriking talent to get good results by picking the ball off the turf, you will only get better by striking down and through imho.

This is the type of feedback I really need and appreciate guys. Thank you very much. I just wanted to be sure that the cost of lessons (which can be buku bucks) would be justified with results. The results of course vary on my level of determination, which would be very high. I just needed to know if we would be talking about a really drastic over-all game enhancing deal here or not.

[iPutt]

I agree with what has been said here about hitting down on the ball, a critical point in every single swing no matter the style (a great book on this is called "The Impact Zone" which teaches the forward shat lean at impact). However, I never felt quite right about a teacher that says he needs to completely "reconstruct" a swing for someone to play well. I believe that anyone can make changes, although there are natural qualities to each swing that should really not be messed with. Just my two cents though and if you really think that in the long term you'll drastically improve your game then I guess it could be worth it.

[Spyder]

Well I went to the range today and hit 2 large buckets (around 120 balls). I tried focusing on hitting down at the ball to leave the divots and make contact with the ground while following through with the impact through the ball. This felt pretty weird to me. The shots felt lucky when they went straight and it felt like where the ball was going was completely random. I quickly switched back to my old swing of picking the ball off the turf, slightly brushing the grass behind the ball (no divot at all), and it felt comfortable again.

I think I'll just stick to what I'm doing seems how I will not be cashing any 6-foot wide checks any time soon! Maybe I can find time to take a lesson here and there with someone who can just help me work on my short game. I'd rather spend money on lessons to shave strokes off my game from around the green, which is where I struggle, rather than start at the tee-box and adjust everything under the sun.

Thanks for your input guys - I really do appreciate it!

Plus, it was my dads birthday today and I bought him a new set of clubs. Of course he called off work tomorrow so that we can go play 9 because he's dying to break them in. I needed to at least be able to compete with him so I knocked the cobwebs off of my old swing for now!

[kevin.chan]

Divot !

[shades9323]

I think that this is a very smart idea. Taking lessons on your short game will pay more dividends for you than a swing reconstruction. That is awesome that you bought your dad new clubs. Now go kick his butt on the course!

Originally Posted by Spyder

Well I went to the range today and hit 2 large buckets (around 120 balls). I tried focusing on hitting down at the ball to leave the divots and make contact with the ground while following through with the impact through the ball. This felt pretty weird to me. The shots felt lucky when they went straight and it felt like where the ball was going was completely random. I quickly switched back to my old swing of picking the ball off the turf, slightly brushing the grass behind the ball (no divot at all), and it felt comfortable again.

I think I'll just stick to what I'm doing seems how I will not be cashing any 6-foot wide checks any time soon! Maybe I can find time to take a lesson here and there with someone who can just help me work on my short game. I'd rather spend money on lessons to shave strokes off my game from around the green, which is where I struggle, rather than start at the tee-box and adjust everything under the sun.

Thanks for your input guys - I really do appreciate it!

Plus, it was my dads birthday today and I bought him a new set of clubs. Of course he called off work tomorrow so that we can go play 9 because he's dying to break them in. I needed to at least be able to compete with him so I knocked the cobwebs off of my old swing for now!

[MackJL06]

swing changes take time...not 2 large buckets. i, too, had a scooping/flipping swing for the longest times until i realized i was NOT going to get any better that way. lessons took me downhill for a while until i got a hang of it...but my 9iron hit hard used to be 130...now its about 150-155 on an easy swing with good contact...i can now also adjust my swing to try and hit low shots, high shots, cuts, draws. a fundamentally better golf swing takes time, effort...and money :( but it will make you a better player

Originally Posted by Spyder

Well I went to the range today and hit 2 large buckets (around 120 balls). I tried focusing on hitting down at the ball to leave the divots and make contact with the ground while following through with the impact through the ball. This felt pretty weird to me. The shots felt lucky when they went straight and it felt like where the ball was going was completely random. I quickly switched back to my old swing of picking the ball off the turf, slightly brushing the grass behind the ball (no divot at all), and it felt comfortable again.

I think I'll just stick to what I'm doing seems how I will not be cashing any 6-foot wide checks any time soon! Maybe I can find time to take a lesson here and there with someone who can just help me work on my short game. I'd rather spend money on lessons to shave strokes off my game from around the green, which is where I struggle, rather than start at the tee-box and adjust everything under the sun.

Thanks for your input guys - I really do appreciate it!

Plus, it was my dads birthday today and I bought him a new set of clubs. Of course he called off work tomorrow so that we can go play 9 because he's dying to break them in. I needed to at least be able to compete with him so I knocked the cobwebs off of my old swing for now!

[WUTiger]

Quote:

... Averaging 150 7i, 180 4i, 250-275 (depending on Fairway) Driver. ...

He couldn't understand how I taught myself to swing so non-conventional, yet make it work as well as it does for my own game. The reason for my divot-less swing, according to him, is my "robotic stiff left arm" (I am right-handed). He wants me to mirror my back swing to my follow-through and un-hinge my left elbow at release.

Overall question: To Divot or Not To Divot at this point in my game? Should I restructure my swing in accordance with his advice, or keep working on my own game and find another pro that will be willing to simply adjust what I am already doing?

The presence or absence of a divot, and the position/shape of your divot, is a byproduct of your golf swing. Taking or not taking divots isn't what's important - it's what the swing produces in ball flight.

One classic idea is that you should take the divot from in front of where the ball rests. Players who do this are driving through the ball, and probably hitting down on it at least a little. If you like divotology, try Tom Watson's article, My Key to Consistency:

Tom Watson in Golf Digest, June 2011, p. 106:

... Every golfer should strive for a consistent bottom of the arc on every swing. It's the primary element on a repeatable swing. ..

An article photo shows a ball sitting at the head of a divot, with a tee some 5" to the right marking the bottom of the arc for the swing:

o_ _ _ T _ _ _

I used to have a much more upright swing, and at the end of a round of golf I felt like someone had hit my right back ribs with a baseball bat. My hit down move came from the advice older caddies once gave me of "pound the ball into the ground" on iron shots.

Hitting down on the ball is useful only to the degree it prevents flipping or hitting the ball on the upswing. But, hitting down is beneficial mainly as the byproduct of a traditional swing arc.

Not everyone likes the idea of "hitting down" on the ball for mega-divots. Adherents of the Manuel De La Torre method, which emphasized club position over body position, don't like it. I had a discussion with a MDLT pro, and he said that hitting down on the ball delofts the club, and prevents the player from getting good height on the ball. Also, Don "The Surge" Trahan of Peak Performance Golf rails against hitting down on the ball, also saying that it delofts the club - and , it causes body to slide forward and spoil tempo (he actually has a list of about five bad things this supposedly triggers).

It you look in Ben Hogan's Five Lessons book (pp. 66-67), he addresses the ball with the club straight up and down. He then does a pre-swing waggle, at which time "...the left hand moves an inch or two past the ball toward the target."

For simplicity sake, most modern pros seem to tell their students to set their hands ahead of the ball during their set-up. Recent advice has always been "slightly ahead," a caution not to overdo it.

I now have a flatter swing. I play a lot on zoysia fairways, and I tend to "cut the grass' when I hit an iron shot - there's no hunk of turf flying through the air, just three inches of bare dirt at the bottom of the swing arc.

So, back to you, Spyder . If you're self-taught and have a 8 HDCP, you must be doing something right. Some questions:

• did the pro videotape your swing sequence? If so, what does the video actually show?
• what have other pros said?

You might get a "second opinion." If you actually have trouble with scooping and casting, a video slo-motion would show this. In your OP, I don't believe you actually said you have this problem, more that you think you might. Possibly the pro assumes you are casting simply becaue you don't carve out turf.

Also, consider Shade 's advice to short up your short game. I wouldn't do a swing rebuild unless it's absolutely necessary - make sure you do have a problem.

That pro is correct in that the ability to release/bend the left elbow on followthrough should lead to a crisper swing. But again, elbow release is a byproduct of a good swing (since you've already made impact) rather than something you can tack onto the end of the swing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Not everyone likes the idea of "hitting down" on the ball for mega-divots. Adherents of the Manuel De La Torre method, which emphasized club position over body position, don't like it. I had a discussion with a MDLT pro, and he said that hitting down on the ball delofts the club, and prevents the player from getting good height on the ball. Also, Don "The Surge" Trahan of Peak Performance Golf rails against hitting down on the ball, also saying that it delofts the club - and, it causes body to slide forward and spoil tempo (he actually has a list of about five bad things this supposedly triggers).

The only problem with those ideas is that de-lofting isn't bad, and virtually every pro takes a divot.

Both can be overdone, but it's the rare amateur golfer who overdoes these...

[Spyder]

Thanks a lot guys! Thank you as well WUTiger for all the additional information!

I did actually happen to randomly meet up with another resident pro where I took my father to play 18 for his birthday. They were actually grouped up right behind us so I asked him if he would mind coming over to the range to watch me hit a few with each ball and he said no problem. After watching my Driver, he did also notice my stiff left elbow. Though he did say I have a "natural swing", which by the way I hate that term when people apply it to sports, he thinks I could definitely improve by hitting more down on the ball. He contradicted the other pro by saying it wouldn't be a drastic improvement and noticed my chipping/pitching struggles right away lol. He recommended that I take a few lessons from around the green.

To be clear, I do not struggle from 20+ yards out with a wedge, I struggle when I'm just off the fringe in the rough where a putter isn't feasible. I will either come up way under the ball and come way short with a pop-n-drop, or blade it and send it off the other end of the green. This is where I look like a complete fool and it makes for a fun time for my friends. (Reaching the fringe of Par 5's in 2 but closing in 5 75% of the time, but the other 1/4 is a 6 or 7!).

All in all, the 2nd opinion pro basically said the swing is working fine as long as I am personally able to judge distance properly with my extreme loft and recommended that I buff up my short game. He mentioned that I have a major benefit with my swing, in that I am able to clear trees that most people cannot with lower clubs. The big downfall he mentioned would be the wind factoring in. I did notice this just yesterday when we went out. I had a few 7's from 165 out that were heading right for the pin area of the green but veered off track by 20 yards when the wind would grab it. I asked him how the heck the wind could grab the ball so quickly and he mentioned that if the ball has any type of spin on it (which he said is usually a clock-wise backspin for my swing type), the wind can easily grab it and throw it off course if the wind is going the direction of the spin on the ball.

Just thinking about all this stuff makes me want a beer!

[ggolokin]

if your just off the fringe use just your shoulders and keep your head down, using wrists on the fringe is dangerous lol

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by ggolokin

if your just off the fringe use just your shoulders and keep your head down, using wrists on the fringe is dangerous lol

Yes, yes it is lol. I have been watching a lot of Phil Mickelson videos on YouTube and trying to replicate the swing motion. Nothing is worse than catching the ball thin and sending it off of the other end. Then, of course, you have it in your head to open the face and get under it and you flop it 2 feet in front of you. What could have been a legitimate par save turns into a 2 putt for a 6 on a Par 4. I did start using my PW instead of my SW around the fringe though. SW used to work fine until I began working on my grip and fixing other issues. PW has been a lot more accurate and I get more of a flop/release. Much less-likely to blade it with a PW too.

EDIT: I meant to say that I started using my PW instead of my SW around the green/fringe. Sorry! I used to be "original" and use my SW because it felt more comfortable while breaking the wrists. I learned quickly that there are 2 things not to do in chipping from around the green. Don't use a SW and don't break your wrists lol.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Overall question: To Divot or Not To Divot at this point in my game? Should I restructure my swing in accordance with his advice, or keep working on my own game and find another pro that will be willing to simply adjust what I am already doing?

PS: I am personally around a 10 HDCP at this current time. I did go up 1-2 strokes recently.

Well, I had the same situation.  I was a very slight scooper of the ball but I played down to a 2.8.  I know a guy from my area that by no means has a conventional swing, but is one of the best golfers around and consistently shoots in the 60s.  So, if you are not spraying the ball all over, swing consistently every time, and KNOW what your ball is going to do....scoring is just scoring.

With that being said, I felt much better taking divots than picking the ball. IMO, it makes the swing feel more like butter.  It instantly gives me the feel of compression and the feel of a well hit shot. It's just a totally different feeling.

Are you sure it would be a "Complete restructure?"  And don't worry about learning to golf all over again.  I would think the changes would be small yet effective.

[carpediem4300]

there are so many threads popping up of late that relate to myself im quite bamboozled lol

in very short my swing is, flat, scoopy, inconsistent, never took a divot in my life, would shoot 110+

starting focusing on ball striking and taking divots, im now shooting low 90's, much more accuracy, much more consistent, swing is still flat, i now even get decent backspin on the ball

Ill be honest and say ive switched from a conventional swing to a S&T swing, but thats my prefence, divots can come from either swing