Pitch and Half Wedges

[Leftygolfer]

If I wasn't good at these shots and putting I couldn't break 90 the way I've been playing.  I feel really confident with these shots.  Unfortunetly I've had a bunch of practice since my ball stiking has been so irratic.

I want to be as close as possible unless it is a very tucked pin.  I can throw it up super high from 40 to 50 yards but its a full swing with an open face.  I personally like playing lower punchish shots but need around 5 yards for the bounce and spin so I can't play that shot to a front tucked pin.

I have always played these shots with feel.  I alter choking up, opening stance and face, and shorting the length of swing and how hard I come through the ball.  I've practiced wedges a bunch in the past 5 years and just let my brain take over.  The one thing I think is super important with the 50-60 yard shot is not letting the hands turn over so it can get off the ground.  At the finish my club face is pointing skyward.  My mistakes are missing a little left so I really have to feel like I am playing with an open stance.

[DaSportsGuy]

Originally Posted by Paradox

It wasn't you.

DaSportsGuy said he'd rather be 145 out than have a partial shot from 60 yards.

True, but it's not like I won't be happy with a 60 yard partial wedge in. I'll gladly take a 60 yard shot in, but I'd feel more comfortable having a full 8i in my hands.

[BugDude]

There are an infinite number of ways to obtain the same result...none of them are right or wrong, just different.  Given the circumstances (wind, receptiveness of greens, lie, how I'm hitting certain shots that day), I may play the same shot on the same hole in a different manner one day to the next.  I may also choose the full shot in some days depending on those factors and pin position.  It's all part of course management and knowing your game.

I'm more of a feel player, so I play less by the numbers.  I decide how I want the ball to come in (high, low, spinning, releasing, from right, from left), and then decide what I would need (club and style of swing) to pull that off.  I end up playing a fair number of less than full shots around the course through my entire range of clubs...but that's just how I learned to play.  I like the creativity that style of play affords.  Conventional wisdom may say that's not the "right" way to play, but it's been working well for me for over 23 years.  I CAN play 18 holes of stock shots with each club (and often do on courses I'm not familiar with)...I just have more fun and feel I play better otherwise.

[handlez42]

Originally Posted by Dave H

I'm a higher handicap so take this as you will, but I have struggled with the same thing as the OP and what I have found this year in addition to what he said is this. I concentrate on taking a shorter back swing and staying aggressive through the ball. What I would often do is get way too long in my backswing and then decelerate on the downswing causing me too dip and hit fat shots. This simple thought has vastly improved my 100 yd and in approaches.

i notice when watching tour events that they usually shorten their backswing and follow-through, but still are nailing wedges long. Is this what your referring to? I have also kept my swing consistent in my bag and wedges have been my enemy. i used to think it was my height (6'4") was causing me to have inconsistent swings from topping to bottoming out too early. ive added an inch to my ram watson BeCu 55 and 60. IRRELEVANT.

So shorter takeaways and by "aggressive" do you mean steep angle of attack?

i feel like my problems might be the same as yours to be honest. my first set of irons with a matching wedge i was hitting my 56 around 100 yards but now im hitting very high and very short.

i feel i could be doing exactly what you did when your results were "fat".

my deceleration could be releasing my hands too early? flipping?

lastly, how important is holding that wrist angle all the way through contact and into the finish?

[handlez42]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I agree with that first paragraph. I have confidence in landing the ball on my spot from any distance, and that comes from a lot of practice. I don't prescribe to both choking down and a shortedned back swing, but different strokes for different folks.

I still prefer to shoot for the 150 or 100 marker though. If I'm a club longer or shorter that's okay, but from 100 and 150 I know what the ball's going to do once it hits the green - nothing.

couldn't that be simply because you know exactly how far you are out? 150 and 100 are pretty common distances on par 4s off the tee shot. they are also usually marked anyways. i think it might be those subtle spots in between that make it soo difficult to hit. if im say 5 yards inside 150 (assuming the green is flat and no elevation change or wind) and course plays it "to the middle of the green but the pin is past the middle of the green. id be best to just play my 150 club opposed to clubbing down. I enjoy when i have to think about all the differences like left-right lie which should push the ball TO THE RIGHT (i think?) and elevation green position and ridge positions wind everything. I enjoy it though because it helps me think less about the most important part of golf, THE SWING! when all those things are accounted for you can just swing and hope you managed the situation right. knowing your game is important.

the best shot i ever hit with the situation being very tough i didnt even land the green, i landed in A BUNKER! haha this can be explained. my drive landed on an up-slope right side rough on the other side of a bunker (very lucky) the slope was soo severe though that hitting my usual 150 club became out of consideration. because of the loft i wouldve hit my 7 straight up in the air and with a left-to-right sloped fairway and a right-to-left wind i wouldve landed short and in the rough behind a bunker short side. (THANK YOU "SCHOOL OF GOLF") so i decided on a loose guess of a 5 iron. pin was left side at the bottom of the sloped green. bunker only 3 yards left of the pin. distance was right on. i landed in this little oval bunker right next to the pin. Thank the lord im good at short side bunker shots and nothing else. up and down for par. it may not have been a good shot to most people, but its the situation at hand that matters. i usually not thinking of ALL THOSE THINGS would have chunked it and put it in the bunker right in front of me or undercut it and it wouldve rolled in the bunker behind me. THAT is was makes golf great, it really is a game played inside 12 inches, right between your ears.

[mdl]

@BugDude, care to offer a few examples?  I'm self taught and I've got a few tricks up my sleeve with <40 yard shots but anything outside of 90 yards (a "full" 60˚) I'm just hitting my stock shot for consistency (excepting of course when I'm forced to make recovery shots, and I've gotten pretty good at the super low punch/knockdown).  But I'm getting good enough finally that I'd be interested in hearing what kinds of variety of shots other better amateurs play.

I'm most interested in, say, what different shots and clubs might you use from further away, maybe something like 170 yards, for different lies, greens, winds, etc.

Originally Posted by BugDude

There are an infinite number of ways to obtain the same result...none of them are right or wrong, just different.  Given the circumstances (wind, receptiveness of greens, lie, how I'm hitting certain shots that day), I may play the same shot on the same hole in a different manner one day to the next.  I may also choose the full shot in some days depending on those factors and pin position.  It's all part of course management and knowing your game.

I'm more of a feel player, so I play less by the numbers.  I decide how I want the ball to come in (high, low, spinning, releasing, from right, from left), and then decide what I would need (club and style of swing) to pull that off.  I end up playing a fair number of less than full shots around the course through my entire range of clubs...but that's just how I learned to play.  I like the creativity that style of play affords.  Conventional wisdom may say that's not the "right" way to play, but it's been working well for me for over 23 years.  I CAN play 18 holes of stock shots with each club (and often do on courses I'm not familiar with)...I just have more fun and feel I play better otherwise.

[BugDude]

Sure.  These are a few shots from my last round yesterday:

1)  From 150 I hit a low hook 5 iron (stock is 180) that landed just short of the green and ran back to the rear section where the pin was located.

2)  From 170 I punched a low 4 iron (stock is 195) under a tree limb with hook...just off the edge of the green.

3)  From 180 I choked up and hit an abbreviated swing 4 hybrid (that I usually hit smooth 200).  More due to the lie than anything.

4)  From 250 I hit a 5 iron 3/4s with high fade to exactly 100 yards out.  Not as much for the distance as it is the only flat spot from which you can see the green for the 3rd shot on the par 5.  Past that it goes down hill and then back up at the green.

5)  There's a 150 yard par 3 at my club, down hill, with a creek in front of the green and a pond left of the green.  I hit a low punch shot with a 6 iron (stock shot on this hole is an easy 7 or a hard 8 depending on the tee placement) that hooked in.

Lots of shots from 25 to 90 that I pitched with a p wedge and g wedge that took 1 hop and stopped.

Originally Posted by mdl

@BugDude, care to offer a few examples?  I'm self taught and I've got a few tricks up my sleeve with <40 yard shots but anything outside of 90 yards (a "full" 60˚) I'm just hitting my stock shot for consistency (excepting of course when I'm forced to make recovery shots, and I've gotten pretty good at the super low punch/knockdown).  But I'm getting good enough finally that I'd be interested in hearing what kinds of variety of shots other better amateurs play.

I'm most interested in, say, what different shots and clubs might you use from further away, maybe something like 170 yards, for different lies, greens, winds, etc.

[sean_miller]

I like 100 and 150 because they're usually the widest and flattest portions of the fairway. If there's an advantage to being less than 100 yards, I go for it. It's not rocket science.

Do you have trouble finding a comfortable hat?

Originally Posted by handlez42

couldn't that be simply because you know exactly how far you are out? 150 and 100 are pretty common distances on par 4s off the tee shot. they are also usually marked anyways. i think it might be those subtle spots in between that make it soo difficult to hit. if im say 5 yards inside 150 (assuming the green is flat and no elevation change or wind) and course plays it "to the middle of the green but the pin is past the middle of the green. id be best to just play my 150 club opposed to clubbing down. I enjoy when i have to think about all the differences like left-right lie which should push the ball TO THE RIGHT (i think?) and elevation green position and ridge positions wind everything. I enjoy it though because it helps me think less about the most important part of golf, THE SWING! when all those things are accounted for you can just swing and hope you managed the situation right. knowing your game is important.

the best shot i ever hit with the situation being very tough i didnt even land the green, i landed in A BUNKER! haha this can be explained. my drive landed on an up-slope right side rough on the other side of a bunker (very lucky) the slope was soo severe though that hitting my usual 150 club became out of consideration. because of the loft i wouldve hit my 7 straight up in the air and with a left-to-right sloped fairway and a right-to-left wind i wouldve landed short and in the rough behind a bunker short side. (THANK YOU "SCHOOL OF GOLF") so i decided on a loose guess of a 5 iron. pin was left side at the bottom of the sloped green. bunker only 3 yards left of the pin. distance was right on. i landed in this little oval bunker right next to the pin. Thank the lord im good at short side bunker shots and nothing else. up and down for par. it may not have been a good shot to most people, but its the situation at hand that matters. i usually not thinking of ALL THOSE THINGS would have chunked it and put it in the bunker right in front of me or undercut it and it wouldve rolled in the bunker behind me. THAT is was makes golf great, it really is a game played inside 12 inches, right between your ears.

[mdl]

Interesting.  Is distance control with all these different shots something you've spent a lot of time at the range dialing in, or just something you've slowly picked up over years of playing? I practice a pretty good amount, but generally I spend my time at the range trying to reduce my margin of error for aiming my stock shot.  It seems daunting to find the time to practice low and high trajectory, fade/slice and draw/hook, and 1/2 to full swing with all the different clubs.

Some examples.  For your (1), I can hit a low hook with the 5i, but unless I've got trees blocking my way, I'm much more confident a smooth stock 9i will land at 145+ and stop short of the pin at 150 than I am that my low hook 5i or 6i will land at ~130 off the front and roll to the pin, rather than either land at 115 and not make the green or come out too hot and airmail it.  Same for (5).

For (4), I'd be more comfortable trying that shot, as if I miss the distance a bit maybe I don't hit the flat spot but at least I'm still in the fairway, but I'm much more likely to just hit an easy, stock 9i, which would probably put me at 105, from where I'm more comfortable compared to 95 just because of my wedge distances.

For something like (5), what's the rationale for hitting the shot you hit?  Is it just to keep things interesting?  Are your percentages really higher hitting a soft low punch draw with a 6i when a stock 8i will get you there many days?

Originally Posted by BugDude

Sure.  These are a few shots from my last round yesterday:

1)  From 150 I hit a low hook 5 iron (stock is 180) that landed just short of the green and ran back to the rear section where the pin was located.

2)  From 170 I punched a low 4 iron (stock is 195) under a tree limb with hook...just off the edge of the green.

3)  From 180 I choked up and hit an abbreviated swing 4 hybrid (that I usually hit smooth 200).  More due to the lie than anything.

4)  From 250 I hit a 5 iron 3/4s with high fade to exactly 100 yards out.  Not as much for the distance as it is the only flat spot from which you can see the green for the 3rd shot on the par 5.  Past that it goes down hill and then back up at the green.

5)  There's a 150 yard par 3 at my club, down hill, with a creek in front of the green and a pond left of the green.  I hit a low punch shot with a 6 iron (stock shot on this hole is an easy 7 or a hard 8 depending on the tee placement) that hooked in.

Lots of shots from 25 to 90 that I pitched with a p wedge and g wedge that took 1 hop and stopped.

[handlez42]

Originally Posted by mdl

@BugDude, care to offer a few examples?  I'm self taught and I've got a few tricks up my sleeve with <40 yard shots but anything outside of 90 yards (a "full" 60˚) I'm just hitting my stock shot for consistency (excepting of course when I'm forced to make recovery shots, and I've gotten pretty good at the super low punch/knockdown).  But I'm getting good enough finally that I'd be interested in hearing what kinds of variety of shots other better amateurs play.

I'm most interested in, say, what different shots and clubs might you use from further away, maybe something like 170 yards, for different lies, greens, winds, etc.

i play exactly the same as you do and would be happy with a 55 from 100 yards but cant seem to get it that far (hit it high and way short.) could be that i have older wedges but i have no idea how to get my 60 past maybe 30 or 40 yards. have considered just getting a 58 but id like to learn how to hit them correctly. knockdowns have recently become an option but im finding it hard to control a pitching wedge distance from a variety of distances.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I like 100 and 150 because they're usually the widest and flattest portions of the fairway. If there's an advantage to being less than 100 yards, I go for it. It's not rocket science.

Do you have trouble finding a comfortable hat?

HAHAHAHA i PROBABLY said the quote wrong. i believe it was bobby jones who said it. maybe he meant 6 inches. i wasnt really thinking about the number at the time just the meaning of the quote. no i have quite a few hats i can fit nicely hahaha srry bout that

[Leftygolfer]

There is always an advantage of being less than 100 yards.  I don't believe anyone is less accurate from 60 yards than 100.  It might be less confortable but it isn't going to be less accurate.  If you have a wildness problem (Like I do) then sometimes I lay back on 5s b/c I'm scared of hitting a terrible 3 wood and being out of position.  But assuming I had more control and confidence than I do right now, I want to get as close as possible unless there is a good reason not too (IE narrow landing area, have to avoid a hazard, hard green with a front hole location)

[sean_miller]

How can you be so certain in the first sentence then backtrack in the last one? It's either always an advantage or it isn't?!?

For many players it's most certainly an advantage to be at 60 yards versus 150 yards, since they're hitting a hybrid or long iron from 150. Those same players likey never get to have 60 yard approaches because they're not hitting far enough off the tee. If they can only get one out there sometimes, then it's almost certainly not worth the risk on most holes.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

There is always an advantage of being less than 100 yards.  I don't believe anyone is less accurate from 60 yards than 100.  It might be less confortable but it isn't going to be less accurate.  If you have a wildness problem (Like I do) then sometimes I lay back on 5s b/c I'm scared of hitting a terrible 3 wood and being out of position.  But assuming I had more control and confidence than I do right now, I want to get as close as possible unless there is a good reason not too (IE narrow landing area, have to avoid a hazard, hard green with a front hole location)

[Leftygolfer]

Statistics.  Its been tested and proven it is easier to hit it closer to a pin from closer to the green than farther away.  I didn't back away from my statment, I just see why playing farther back is better at times depending on your game.  I just can't believe that someone can drop 3 balls in the center of the fairwayfrom 100 yards,  hit them, average distance to the pin, then do the same thing from 60, and not have a better average.  If that is the case, you have a real weakness.  It is just easier to make a smaller controlled swing and misses aren't as exagerated.  Maybe I'm wrong and what I've read is wrong.  But I know when I can control my ball through the bag, I'm going to get as close to every par five in two, and hit drivers on short par 4s to get into the range where a bad shot is 20 feet.  And when I do get out of position (what I do way too much now) I'm going to try to get into the mini-wedge zone.

[BugDude]

Originally Posted by mdl

Interesting.  Is distance control with all these different shots something you've spent a lot of time at the range dialing in, or just something you've slowly picked up over years of playing? I practice a pretty good amount, but generally I spend my time at the range trying to reduce my margin of error for aiming my stock shot.  It seems daunting to find the time to practice low and high trajectory, fade/slice and draw/hook, and 1/2 to full swing with all the different clubs.

Some examples.  For your (1), I can hit a low hook with the 5i, but unless I've got trees blocking my way, I'm much more confident a smooth stock 9i will land at 145+ and stop short of the pin at 150 than I am that my low hook 5i or 6i will land at ~130 off the front and roll to the pin, rather than either land at 115 and not make the green or come out too hot and airmail it.  Same for (5).

For (4), I'd be more comfortable trying that shot, as if I miss the distance a bit maybe I don't hit the flat spot but at least I'm still in the fairway, but I'm much more likely to just hit an easy, stock 9i, which would probably put me at 105, from where I'm more comfortable compared to 95 just because of my wedge distances.

For something like (5), what's the rationale for hitting the shot you hit?  Is it just to keep things interesting?  Are your percentages really higher hitting a soft low punch draw with a 6i when a stock 8i will get you there many days?

I'm a self-taught "FEEL" player, and have been for 23+ years.  I learned to play golf on a short 9 hole course with 5 par 3s and 4 par 4s, and there were no yardage markers on the course anywhere.  All you ever encountered were awkward partial swing shots, with trees everywhere you had to control trajectory on.  And you had to walk, up and down hills, and I played 36 holes every Saturday, and 36 every Sunday, and several times during the week.  I learned to look at a shot and tell if I could get a certain club there or not.  It had tiny greens and very narrow fairways, and hardly any decent grass so you had to pinch the ball off of hard pan.  For many years I thought I sucked at golf until I started playing "big courses."  I quickly figured out many years of torturing myself on that course meant most other courses seemed easy in comparison.

Fast forward many years and I still approach the game much the same way.  Some of it is I enjoy hitting those shots, being creative, and knowing my game and the conditions and managing my game and the course accordingly.  My current home course is a narrow mountain course with small undulating greens and not a flat spot anywhere.  It is covered with trees and has a lot of elevation changes, some holes have several elevation changes from tee to green.  Every shot is from a side-hill, up-hill, or down-hill lie.  Mostly side-hills.  Not easy to hit good full shots from those lies.  It lends itself to creativity to manage your way strategically around it.

As for my rationale on certain shots:

1)  Low hook 5i from 150.  The set of irons I'm playing right now a 7i is my stock 150 club.  The green slopes towards me, and anything hit remotely short will not kick back and likely spin to front or off (but not right now, because the ground was hard and dry).  Pin is back and left with trouble on the right side of a small green and a slight breeze into my face.  I know I can always hook (can't always fade).  So, I took a 5i and hit a 3/4 swung low hook that landed short of the green and hopped up the slope to the back left of the green and left me an 8 footer for bird, taking the trouble right out of play.  If I hit a hard 7i into the wind, I am more likely to over-hook a full shot and into the breeze it magnifies the hook missing the green left and short-siding the pin placement unless started the aimpoint OB.  As I hit it, I aimed at the right part of the green and gently turned it over.  If it didn't turn, I was still on the green.

4)  The hole goes straight out and then bends right with trees down the right hand side until it gets to the bend.  I had to hit a high cut to get around the trees and bend, if it goes straight it ends up in very high grass below the green level or in a pond.  There is also OB down the right hand side all the way to the green, and the fairway is 12 feet from OB.  When I hit a cut, I tend to come in very steep (since it isn't my natural flight), if I hit a full shot with a 7i I was concerned I would over-cook the cut and go OB or dead pull it left into the pond (which I also have a tendency to do when trying to hit a hard cut).  The solution, a 3/4 5i that went high, gently faded around the corner, and ended up dead center flat spot exactly 100 yards out.  Within a beach towel size of the perfect spot.

5)  150 par 3 downhill, creek right in front of green, pond just left of green, sand trap front left of green.  Pin was cut front left.  All trouble was short and left.  Stung a low drawing 6i started at the right center of green that took one hop and stopped.  Ended up 10 feet back and right from the hole and had an easy down hill slightly left breaking putt (I prefer putts that break left).  Took all the trouble out of play.  Could I have hit a 7i to the same spot?  Yep.  That's just the way I saw me playing that shot that day given how I was hitting the ball.  Hit the 7 on the toe a little and you're in the creek.  Turn it over too much and you're in the sand or pond.  I KNOW I can hit the low punch 6 crisp and at worst be in the middle to back of the green with a 25 to 35 foot putt.

Being a feel player, what shot I play at any given point is more intuitive than scientific.  You just feel it, you see it, you visualize the shot.  Don't get me wrong, I do hit a lot of straight forward stock shots.  My round a month or so ago in Williamsburg was 95% stock shots and I shot 76.  I hit tons of fairways and tons of greens.  Putted so/so, but I did hit some creative low punch sand wedge chip and pitch shots around a couple greens on occasion.  Other than that, it was stockville for me because I was feeling very mechanical and less feely.  Fairways were perfect bermuda, so it was like hitting off of a tee all day.  Fairways were wide and greens were big.  It was somewhat of a boring round in that I played 18 holes and used Driver, 6i, 2 wedges, putter, and a hybrid twice.  It did not lend itself to much creativity, at least not compared to my home course.  Mountain golf is a different animal.

[handlez42]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

How can you be so certain in the first sentence then backtrack in the last one? It's either always an advantage or it isn't?!?

For many players it's most certainly an advantage to be at 60 yards versus 150 yards, since they're hitting a hybrid or long iron from 150. Those same players likey never get to have 60 yard approaches because they're not hitting far enough off the tee. If they can only get one out there sometimes, then it's almost certainly not worth the risk on most holes.

i know in most cases anybody that can get 60 yards out is either on a short course or can nail it off the tee. i know a guy that pounds the ball and yet has terrible wedge play, and in most cases not too good with the scoring irons. People who dont often leave themselves with less than 90 yards are more likely going to be better with scoring irons. im hit or miss with my big stick, and know that when i leave myself a 55deg wedge left to the green im pretty uncomfortable. i think mostly because im uncomfortable with short clubs cause of my height. but i know id rather be from 120-150 vs 60-100 because its where i usually end up. but obviously knowing your game is important.

i think it might be the course i play at because of the bunkers on the front edges of the green and my wedge distances are usually short.

[BugDude]

I think we have hit on something key. The course you play regularly and the dynamics of that course shapes your game. Perhaps it is the type of shot you are regularly left with, perhaps it is the weather, terrain, type of grass, etc.  I play on a somewhat short, very narrow, tree covered, elevation changing, side-hill up/down-hill lie course with small greens.  The wind blows here ALL THE TIME.  Perhaps that is why I like low punch, drawing, partial swing shots.  The course I have played several times per week for 14 years has dictated it.  If I played long wide open flat courses with fluffy grass and big greens and little wind all the time, I'm sure my game would look much different.  I will admit that I have fallen in love with the low draw punch and I sometimes hit it when I don't really need to, but I am so comfortable with it that it feels normal.  It is when I can't control the amount of hook on full shots that I get in trouble.

[WUTiger]

Originally Posted by Paradox

... I think most people run into trouble with half-shots because they immediately think of a slower swing instead of a shorter swing. ...

Key thing is to adjust the backswing length, and then accelerate the club through the ball. A local pro recommends about 85% power of the full swing, so as to keep good direction.

Also, I practice the quarter, half and 3/4 swing with different wedges and get an idea of how far, say, a PW will go with half swing. Then, I clip a laminated distance card to my bag.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Statistics.  Its been tested and proven it is easier to hit it closer to a pin from closer to the green than farther away.  I didn't back away from my statment, I just see why playing farther back is better at times depending on your game.  I just can't believe that someone can drop 3 balls in the center of the fairwayfrom 100 yards,  hit them, average distance to the pin, then do the same thing from 60, and not have a better average.  If that is the case, you have a real weakness.  It is just easier to make a smaller controlled swing and misses aren't as exagerated.  Maybe I'm wrong and what I've read is wrong.  But I know when I can control my ball through the bag, I'm going to get as close to every par five in two, and hit drivers on short par 4s to get into the range where a bad shot is 20 feet.  And when I do get out of position (what I do way too much now) I'm going to try to get into the mini-wedge zone.

I guess the point of my post wasn't to debate whether on average a 60 yard shot ends up closer than an average 100 yard shot for most players (or whether a truly bad shot for those players is one that finishes outside 20 feet or misses the green entirely). To say that the shorter shot is always the better play is just not correct. Certainly it's not correct for every player on every hole. To say this a weakness is correct - it sounds like someone needs to work on his full SW shots.

One point I was trying to make is that just getting to 60 yards, or even to 100 yards, is not really an option for probably 90% (or higher) of the golfers out there (likely closer to 99% in this forum based on 300 yard driver hater threads) unless it's a 300 yard hole. So whether it's an advantage to be hitting into a hard green from 60 yards versus 100 yards isn't my point. For most amateurs that choice is on their 3rd shot into a par 4. For players at your level, the 3rd shot is either a putt or a chip/pitch.