So much for lessons.

[mvmac]

Good luck

btw I was not saying that iacas is the only one that can explain the golf swing to you, but he is someone who provides a lot of great information

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Good luck

btw I was not saying that iacas is the only one that can explain the golf swing to you, but he is someone who provides a lot of great information

I dont doubt that iacas is full of helpful information. Im very certain hes a good instructor.

My question is will he be helpful and friendly without any money changing hands.

I mean, this is a discussion forum as far as I can tell, and I didnt have to pay any money to join. So is the information here free between fellow players....or do I need a checkbook to ask?

I noticed that the instructor at Dicks got really tight lipped when I asked specific questions. Thats about when he told me that I should take lessons.

"Oh...and by the way, I am an instructor"

Sort of like my telling you youre going to die tomorrow....oh, unless you buy this tonic I just happen to have for sale at an exaggerated cost.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Thats your comment I was responding to. Sounds a bit desperate to me, almost like an instructor trying to scare someone into taking lessons, dont ya think ? There are no odds stacked against anyone. With thousands of instructional books and videos out there its just a matter of paying attention and learning.

No. Not at all.

It's simply a statement of fact. Odds are you're not a golf savant. If you are, well, welcome to the club. I think Ben Hogan and Moe Norman may be the only members.

The odds of you being a golf savant are stacked against you. The odds of you being able to see something once and immediately and correctly implement it in your own swing are stacked against you.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

And do you know how many OTHER resources say to keep your eye on the ball?

So what YOU have had to do or not had to do is irrelevant.

I read Jack Nicklaus book that very  clearly said to keep your eye on the ball and even told how old Jack did it.

Do I believe a tournament winner or some guy making claims on the web that I dont know

You know what that paragraph shows me? That you're nowhere near as well versed as you think you are. Did Annika Sorenstam "keep her eye on the ball through impact"?

But hey, go ahead... "Keep your head down." I'm sure that's all that you have to do.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

1, Since you dont know me I really dont care what you think.

2. When a par four means I need to be on in two and I can get on in two...eh...seems like Ive gotten somewhere

If you don't care what others think, why post? What's the point?

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I suggest you pay attention because Ive made no outlandish claims here.

Yes you have. I'm not going to outline them, but "I understand the golf swing and can implement the proper fix quickly in my own swing after seeing it" (paraphrased) would be at the top of the list.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Im not interested in lessons. I didnt come here to have lessons pushed on me or to be told I cant learn to play the game casually without them.

We get that. Nobody's pushing lessons on you. Some might be calling you on what they perceive as bullshit, but nobody's pushing lessons on you. Nobody's saying you can't learn to shoot in the 90s on your own. Of course you can. Hell, I got down to a 2 handicap "on my own." Doesn't mean I understood the golf swing at that point, and I'd clearly hit a ceiling (or basement, depending on how you look at it).

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I came here for friendly discussion and if thats not going to be possible there are thousands of other golf forums just like this one I can head to.

You came for a discussion but you don't care what other people think. Got it. Again, I'm sorry, but what's the point of this thread?

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Im sorry but that is YOUR assumption.

You dont know me from Adam so you are in no position to make any such claim and even making it like this youve proven that your judgment cannot be trusted as it is entirely based in bias and emotion rather than fact, logic and reason.

Right. It's because I'm based in logic and reason and fact that I'm saying it's unlikely or improbable that you're doing the things you claim to be doing.

In the end, I really don't care much. In fact, for the sake of whatever instructors are nearby to you, I hope you don't take lessons.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Huh...imagine that.

Keeping ones eye on the ball actually has some PURPOSE in the golf swing

You won't win any points citing things on the Internet as "proof" of anything. Seriously. I could find thousands of articles that tell you the ball starts where the path of the clubhead is traveling at impact and curves to where the face is pointing. They're factually wrong.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

My question is will he be helpful and friendly without any money changing hands.

I dunno. I've got a free website (you don't even have to join to read it!) with lots of great information. And the occasional awful thread with no point. :-P

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I noticed that the instructor at Dicks got really tight lipped when I asked specific questions. Thats about when he told me that I should take lessons.

"Oh...and by the way, I am an instructor"

What's your problem with that? Is he not allowed to be paid for his knowledge and time?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Just to add my own perspective here:

• I started off taking lessons but didn't progress at all. My game at the end of my first few months of lessons was as bad as when I started and I couldn't wrap my head around anything the pro was trying to teach so I stopped taking lessons.
• Then 9 months or so later I discovered S&T;, read the book, watched the DVD's and took several lessons from an authorised S&T; teaching pro and my ball striking and knowledge of the golf swing itself came along tenfold.
• I then decided I had enough of a basis to learn more about the swing myself and continue improving without lessons so I stopped taking lessons with him.
• I played for a year or so with no lessons at all but with a lot of reading, watching, talking and practice and I improved a lot but always had a niggling (minor!) lower back strain after each round of golf. No major injuries though.
• I then decided that S&T; as a whole swing philosophy and method is not for me or my physiology but that there are a LOT of individual parts of it that are fantastic so I'd use those parts of it for my swing but would adapt any changes that helped my swing.
• As a result my swing started to gravitate back toward a more traditional looking swing and this also lessened the lower back problem.
• I took a free golf swing evaluation with the pro at my new club and found that we are extremely compatible as a pro and student in terms of thoughts on the golf swing, golf philosophies, respect for certain teaching pros and playing pros so we started to work on my swing together 1.5 months ago.
• I've already my distance off the tee with no loss of accuracy, my iron and wedge accuracy is much much better, my chipping is more consistent and I have no pain at all in the swing (save for a torn rotator cuff which entirely my own doing!). I've even played several 27 hole days and been raring to go right back out to squeeze in an extra 9! lol

For me I plan on taking lessons as and when they bring my game on or when I'm uncertain of something and I know it's affecting my swing.

The information on this website is normally second to none. There are a lot of VERY knowledgeable guys on here who offer their advice and help freely in order that people can succeed at golf. My suggestion to anyone wanting to get better is to simply take advice if you want advice or don't take advice if you know best, either way we normally have a fairly respectful community here so let's just try and keep things relaxed and friendly.

Another thing to bear in mind that information changes over time as new evidence becomes available. People used to think that the world was flat but it was proven otherwise. People used to believe that the golf ball started out along the path of the swing but it was proven otherwise. Just because X book says something is a fact it doesn't necessarily mean it's true, especially when there is evidence to the contrary thanks to modern technology.

My father in law tells me often that my driver stance is closed and that he's watched an old video that says it needs to be open. In actuality it needs to stay closed for me.

He tells me that an old video/book says I should lock my knees and not let my rear leg straighten. In actuality it needs to straighten.

He tells me I need to "pick the club up more". In actuality I have a one-plane swing and need to keep it nice and flat.

You may need to keep your eye on the ball whereas someone else may not need to, either way it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong; they're just different requirements for different people.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

The odds of you being a golf savant are stacked against you. The odds of you being able to see something once and immediately and correctly implement it in your own swing are stacked against you.

Yes yes,....we all know that my ONLY hope...(sniff)....is for me to beg you to give me lessons.

...yawn....

Not interested.

Quote:

If you don't care what others think, why post? What's the point?

So by your illogical reasoning I have to CARE what YOU think about my GAME in order to ask you would suggest  I should chip with a 8 or 9 iron?

yeah....ok....

Thanks for the discussion but you and I are finished on this particular topic.

[Phil McGleno]

This thread is a riot. Been following along for a few days now. GolfsForFun you shoot in the 100s and hope to shoot 90 some day and you think youve got ita ll figured out!?!? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Funniest ****ing thing I've read this month maybe all year. What a hoot.

More power to you. I can tell you this, though Ive seen your type and Ive kicked your type off my lesson tee before too. You think you know way more than you do and you apparently think my time should be free since a guy at Dick's cut you off after you bugged him for long enough.

I dont think you realize how bad you suck to shoot in the 90s or 100s especially if you play some goat track with 320 yard par fours. Anyone can do that and you're not all that special. Strokes come off your score big time when you're shooting 150. Or 120. Strokes come off slowly when you get to 90. Even slower when you get to 80. They require more work more knowledge and more practice.

I hope you're happy in golf. I know a lot of people that are happy to go out and shoot their 92s with their buddies. Good for them I'm glad they're enjoying the game. But if you're not that type, when you stop improving because you hit that barrier, whenever you hit it, don't go crying to an instructor because you can't figure it out. And you will, if you're the other type of golfer.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Yes yes,....we all know that my ONLY hope...(sniff)....is for me to beg you to give me lessons.

At this point, there's virtually no chance of me giving you lessons. The last thing I want to deal with is some guy that thinks he knows WAY more than he does. My time would be better spent improving myself and what I know and how I teach. Or napping. Or slapping myself in the face repeatedly.

Nobody's trying to sell you anything. I am calling you on what I see as bullshit, though.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

So by your illogical reasoning I have to CARE what YOU think about my GAME in order to ask you would suggest  I should chip with a 8 or 9 iron?

yeah....ok....

That doesn't even make sense. You need to care what others think if you start a thread for discussion. You don't get to start threads and then claim that you don't care what anyone else thinks. You do or you wouldn't start the thread.

Unless something's wrong with you. What did you want? A bunch of people telling you that you're awesome for almost breaking 100 all on your own?

And enough with the insults. Cool it.

[canadianpro]

Looking at your avatar.....do you know what a "duck hook" is? If so, how do you get rid of it?

[iacas]

I'd like to repeat the only real questions I have at this point. Please try to answer in a single sentence or at most a single paragraph.

What is the point of this thread? What did you hope to see discussed when you started it? Why did you start this thread?

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Just to add my own perspective here:

• I started off taking lessons but didn't progress at all. My game at the end of my first few months of lessons was as bad as when I started and I couldn't wrap my head around anything the pro was trying to teach so I stopped taking lessons.
• Then 9 months or so later I discovered S&T;, read the book, watched the DVD's and took several lessons from an authorised S&T; teaching pro and my ball striking and knowledge of the golf swing itself came along tenfold.
• I then decided I had enough of a basis to learn more about the swing myself and continue improving without lessons so I stopped taking lessons with him.
• I played for a year or so with no lessons at all but with a lot of reading, watching, talking and practice and I improved a lot but always had a niggling (minor!) lower back strain after each round of golf. No major injuries though.
• I then decided that S&T; as a whole swing philosophy and method is not for me or my physiology but that there are a LOT of individual parts of it that are fantastic so I'd use those parts of it for my swing but would adapt any changes that helped my swing.
• As a result my swing started to gravitate back toward a more traditional looking swing and this also lessened the lower back problem.
• I took a free golf swing evaluation with the pro at my new club and found that we are extremely compatible as a pro and student in terms of thoughts on the golf swing, golf philosophies, respect for certain teaching pros and playing pros so we started to work on my swing together 1.5 months ago.
• I've already my distance off the tee with no loss of accuracy, my iron and wedge accuracy is much much better, my chipping is more consistent and I have no pain at all in the swing (save for a torn rotator cuff which entirely my own doing!). I've even played several 27 hole days and been raring to go right back out to squeeze in an extra 9! lol

For me I plan on taking lessons as and when they bring my game on or when I'm uncertain of something and I know it's affecting my swing.

The information on this website is normally second to none. There are a lot of VERY knowledgeable guys on here who offer their advice and help freely in order that people can succeed at golf. My suggestion to anyone wanting to get better is to simply take advice if you want advice or don't take advice if you know best, either way we normally have a fairly respectful community here so let's just try and keep things relaxed and friendly.

Another thing to bear in mind that information changes over time as new evidence becomes available. People used to think that the world was flat but it was proven otherwise. People used to believe that the golf ball started out along the path of the swing but it was proven otherwise. Just because X book says something is a fact it doesn't necessarily mean it's true, especially when there is evidence to the contrary thanks to modern technology.

My father in law tells me often that my driver stance is closed and that he's watched an old video that says it needs to be open. In actuality it needs to stay closed for me.

He tells me that an old video/book says I should lock my knees and not let my rear leg straighten. In actuality it needs to straighten.

He tells me I need to "pick the club up more". In actuality I have a one-plane swing and need to keep it nice and flat.

Definitely agree with keeping it friendly.

What I do is basically read and watch TONS of material on the golf swing, tear it down into basic concepts, and then find the common denominators involved and try to apply them and see how they work.

The problem with trying to use one source, as youve shown above, is that way may not work well for me personally given my physical condition and ability.

As far as the ball not starting out on the path of the swing, I would have to disagree on that point based on what Ive been seeing in my own experience.

If I aim my body right of target and use that as my swing path, I can close the club face at address and then swing as though Im aiming right of target and I can see the ball every time go out on that line for about half of the distance (direction of the swing path) and then come back in to the target on the left (a draw).

If I aim dead middle but close the club face  the ball inevitably starts out straight down my swing path and then quickly hooks around and head for the parking lot next door

There does seem to be ample evidence that the ball does start in the direction of the swing path from my experience.

This was very helpful;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0wPnLYNy4&feature;=player_embedded

Quote:

You may need to keep your eye on the ball whereas someone else may not need to, either way it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong; they're just different requirements for different people.

Although Ive read differently, I can at least be man enough to accept that there may be someone out there there who can play with their eyes closed.

Myself, when I let my eyes close or move through impact, 9 times out of 10 I already know my head has lifted very slightly and Im either going to hit a very high shot or Im going to skull the ball out 130 yards.

Its definitely consistent enough when it does happen....and the correction works every time (just keeping the eye on the ball)....that its pretty obvious what is going on.

Personally, I cant play with my eyes closed. And no instructor would have to inform me of that fact

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'd like to repeat the only real questions I have at this point. Please try to answer in a single sentence or at most a single paragraph.

What is the point of this thread? What did you hope to see discussed when you started it? Why did you start this thread?

Go back to post one.

Read the thread again.

Pay attention to what I BELIEVED at first and what I changed my mind on.

This thread had a POINT and has deviated to some degree.

Im really not sure if we need to just ignore each other or what, friend, but Im not getting myself into trouble here because YOU cant let something go.

We've both made points and counter points.

We're NOT going to agree on those points.

Such as you said you never tell your students to keep their eye on the ball, but Ive given enough evidence that it IS something that IS taught by other instuctors.

And I KNOW it has an effect on MY game.

Since you arent going to accept that it DOES affect my game...and we're not going to agree on the need of an instructor in EVERY case, I see no reason to waste my time or yours on the matter.

Please let it go so I dont have to go find an ignore feature.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Yes yes,....we all know that my ONLY hope...(sniff)....is for me to beg you to give me lessons.

...yawn....

Not interested.

So by your illogical reasoning I have to CARE what YOU think about my GAME in order to ask you would suggest  I should chip with a 8 or 9 iron?

yeah....ok....

Thanks for the discussion but you and I are finished on this particular topic.

Wow.

My troll meter is reading of the charts right now.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Wow.

My troll meter is reading of the charts right now.

ya might want to read the REST of the thread

[JP1111]

I hate it when after a bad shot people say, keep your head down, in my experience what you do with your head has very little bearing on the shot. Like the OP I am new to the game (6 months) and have never had a lesson. I drive between 220 and 250, mostly straight or a slight fade ( if I hit a bad one it is usually a pull), I hit a 5 iron (longest iron in my bag) about 170 and the others go down in increments of 10 yards. My best round has been a 9 over par 79 on a course just over 6200 yards. I played a below avarage round of 93 today with 8 fairways out of 14, 6 GIRs and 36 putts (4 others from the fringe) I also had two penalties. I probably would improve with instruction but I kind of like the idea of been self taught. I have already had a spell where I was hitting it fat and identified that I was bending my knees a little on the down swing. I had an hour at the range and managed to correct it. Iam by no means a great player but I am better than most people that I play with, most of which have played alot longer and some who have had lessons. I guess what I am saying is that some people benefit greatly from lessons, but it shouldnt be assumed that everybody needs them, some people are naturally more talented than others and are able understand the swing better. Having said that though im not sure the OP is quite as good as he thinks.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Yes yes,....we all know that my ONLY hope...(sniff)....is for me to beg you to give me lessons.

...yawn....

Not interested.

This is what I love about improving at golf.  If you really want to improve, it often takes a character change.  Some people think that their only problem is that their crappy swing sucks.  The worst ones think that they don't have any problems, but just need to go and do some things that they don't feel like doing, like practice, or whatever.  If this were MMA, all it would take is a beat down to make those people either recognize their lack of skill or walk away for good.  Unfortunately that doesn't happen in golf, so we keep shooting 95 and blaming everything but ourselves because it's really not that life-threatening to shoot 95 so there isn't as much pain as motivator.  Look deep and ask what kind of person you really are.  A lot of people have given you instruction in this thread and you haven't paid anything for it.  Then at the end of it all, you say they have an angle or agenda. They didn't need to spend any of their valuable time giving you any information, but they did.  Don't make this quote true here:

"To try to explain truth to him who loves it not, is but to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation." --George MacDonald

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP1111

I hate it when after a bad shot people say, keep your head down, in my experience what you do with your head has very little bearing on the shot.
Like the OP I am new to the game (6 months) and have never had a lesson.
I drive between 220 and 250, mostly straight or a slight fade ( if I hit a bad one it is usually a pull), I hit a 5 iron (longest iron in my bag) about 170 and the others go down in increments of 10 yards. My best round has been a 9 over par 79 on a course just over 6200 yards.
I played a below avarage round of 93 today with 8 fairways out of 14, 6 GIRs and 36 putts (4 others from the fringe) I also had two penalties.
I probably would improve with instruction but I kind of like the idea of been self taught. I have already had a spell where I was hitting it fat and identified that I was bending my knees a little on the down swing. I had an hour at the range and managed to correct it.
Iam by no means a great player but I am better than most people that I play with, most of which have played alot longer and some who have had lessons. I guess what I am saying is that some people benefit greatly from lessons, but it shouldnt be assumed that everybody needs them, some people are naturally more talented than others and are able understand the swing better.

Try this.

Put a ball on the ground and address it.

Now raise your head 2-3 inches. See what happened?

If I raise my head its pretty much sure that I raised my shoulders, arms, hands, club and therefore the clubface.

The sweet spot on an iron is what? An inch across at most?

So if you set up with it where it should be then raise your head, arms and therefore the clubface at impact you dont think this will have any effect?

Ever see anyone skull a ball with the bottom edge of a club?

Thats what happens when you raise the club which is an easy thing to tell because unless your arms were bent and drawn in 3 inches its likely that the cause was your head raising up and pulling the club up with it.

Quote:

Having said that though im not sure the OP is quite as good as he thinks.

On in 2 on a par four. I believe thats what the regulations say....unless Im mistaken

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

As far as the ball not starting out on the path of the swing, I would have to disagree on that point based on what Ive been seeing in my own experience.

If I aim my body right of target and use that as my swing path, I can close the club face at address and then swing as though Im aiming right of target and I can see the ball every time go out on that line for about half of the distance (direction of the swing path) and then come back in to the target on the left (a draw).

If I aim dead middle but close the club face  the ball inevitably starts out straight down my swing path and then quickly hooks around and head for the parking lot next door

There does seem to be ample evidence that the ball does start in the direction of the swing path from my experience.

This was very helpful;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0wPnLYNy4&feature;=player_embedded

Although Ive read differently, I can at least be man enough to accept that there may be someone out there there who can play with their eyes closed.

Congrats you now defy the laws of physics.

btw the Justin Rose video was made before he started working with Sean Foley, a guy that knows the correct ball flight laws.  Justin knows the truth now

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

This is what I love about improving at golf.  If you really want to improve, it often takes a character change.  Some people think that their only problem is that their crappy swing sucks.  The worst ones think that they don't have any problems, but just need to go and do some things that they don't feel like doing, like practice, or whatever.  If this were MMA, all it would take is a beat down to make those people either recognize their lack of skill or walk away for good.  Unfortunately that doesn't happen in golf, so we keep shooting 95 and blaming everything but ourselves because it's really not that life-threatening to shoot 95 so there isn't as much pain as motivator.  Look deep and ask what kind of person you really are.  A lot of people have given you instruction in this thread and you haven't paid anything for it.  Then at the end of it all, you say they have an angle or agenda.  They didn't need to spend any of their valuable time giving you any information, but they did.  Don't make this quote true here:

"To try to explain truth to him who loves it not, is but to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation." --George MacDonald

As far as Ive seen Ive been very appreciative of any suggestions OTHER than the incessant one that keeps telling me to go pay for lessons,.

Again, reading the whole thread may help some instead of just jumping in on page 9 and thinking you know what has been going on :-)