Joe Paterno and Penn State

[Mr3Wiggle]

I fully expect Penn State to suspend it's own program for a season.  If that does not happen the NCAA should and probably will step in with the death penalty.  That school/culture needs to get it's perspective back.  There are more important things than football.  Perhaps a year without football will do everyone in Happy Valley some good.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

PSU football is not to blame, Sandusky, Paterno, the athletic director, the president, vice president, district attorney, board of trustees, Corbett and anyone else that knew what Sandusky was doing and did nothing to stop it are the ones to blame.  If you penalize PSU football with the death penalty you punish kids that had nothing to do with it.  PSU football earns $53M a year which funds all of the other universities sports programs, giving PSU football the death penalty is basically a death penalty to the entire schools athletics.  It also punishes the other schools in the Big 10 that already have PSU on their home schedule, and all the vending and local businesses that depend on PSU football for business.

The PSU football program isn't at fault it's the money hungry administrators I've identified above that lost sight of their priorities who need to be punished.  The crimes Sandusky committed have nothing to do with the NCAA, they need to stay out of it IMO.

That $53 million is exactly what created the culture of worship that allowed this to flourish.  The PSU football program ran that university and ran that town.  I guarantee that if Sandusky coached at some podunk junior college no one ever heard of he would have been in jail years ago.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by turtleback

That $53 million is exactly what created the culture of worship that allowed this to flourish.  The PSU football program ran that university and ran that town.  I guarantee that if Sandusky coached at some podunk junior college no one ever heard of he would have been in jail years ago.

The BoT asked Paterno to retire in 2004 he told them no.  They wanted to pass a policy that would limit the power of the University President and Paterno.  They were told not to do it, and it was never voted on.  Paterno ran that place.  Lots more information is going to come out.  That place was such a mess and Paterno was in charge of the whole thing.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by inthehole

Yeah Ok, paterno = Escobar. Lol

Hyperbole.  Of course Paterno didn't order Sandusky to @$$rape little boys in the football building, but he did allow it to happen.  And then, when he finally took away the keys to the building, he in effect said, "just don't rape them here ."

[Kapanda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're attemptig to justify unacceptable behavior in similar manners that terrorists use to justify the use of car bombs and flying planes into buildings.  You can't excuse Paterno for looking the other way while Sandusky raped kids because the PSU football team did good things for the community and charity.    You have the fortunate benefit of being an unbiased observer who is trying to be omniscient in thinking you know everyones motivations for why they acted as they did but if you were the child or family member of one of the children that Sandusky raped or molested you're likely to have a different perspective on it all.

We may never know the real reasons why Paterno and others chose to cover up what Sandusky did but to assume it was all good intentioned is quite naive.

Where do you see me excusing Paterno for looking the other way?

Quote:

This isn't an attempt at defending JoePa, he failed terribly at upholding basic morals. What he did was absolutely terrible. This witch hunt on the face of PSU Football, however, is unwarranted as well.

This was an attempt by me to emphasize my view that there is no excusing Paterno's actions. But that in no way means that he did no good at all.

Quote:

can't even contribute to this "debate" my man. To say that charity can outweigh the immoral decision to turn your back on a disgusting and sick crime is exactly why PSU still has a minority of alumni and staff that back Paterno and the program. Forget the immigration laws in AZ. Put a wall around PSU and all of the supporters and fortify them - let the innocent and equally disgusted faculty/administration/students transfer to schools with higher intelligence and morals.

So, you honestly believe that if a man were to lift the lives of hundreds and thousands of people in a significant manner - put scores of families under drastically improved life conditions - but at the same time failed miserably to stop a much smaller number of children from being hurt, the good done no longer matters?

I don't even think that the picture you painted really reflects Paterno's contribution to society - as far as I am aware he did much less than what you said.

[Kapanda]

More importantly, nobody should answer for or be pinned to things they did not commit.

All we can safely conclude from what we know is that he failed to blow the whistle on a dodgy character. More than that and we are speculating at this point.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're attemptig to justify unacceptable behavior in similar manners that terrorists use to justify the use of car bombs and flying planes into buildings.  You can't excuse Paterno for looking the other way while Sandusky raped kids because the PSU football team did good things for the community and charity.    You have the fortunate benefit of being an unbiased observer who is trying to be omniscient in thinking you know everyones motivations for why they acted as they did but if you were the child or family member of one of the children that Sandusky raped or molested you're likely to have a different perspective on it all.

We may never know the real reasons why Paterno and others chose to cover up what Sandusky did but to assume it was all good intentioned is quite naive.

I also just realised that you are trying to equate this "yes, those people deserved to die! They weren't innocent, they voted their murderous government in"

to this "yes, that man did something really bad, but I think people are making him more culpable than what the evidence leads to conclude"

Would like to know how those two are even remotely close...

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

More importantly, nobody should answer for or be pinned to things they did not commit.

All we can safely conclude from what we know is that he failed to blow the whistle on a dodgy character. More than that and we are speculating at this point.

Have you read the Freeh report?

[Mr3Wiggle]

These kids just really don't understand what's important:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/football/ncaa/07/18/penn-state-students-paterno-statue.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref;=sihp

The more I hear the more I believe a year without football will do them some good.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Have you read the Freeh report?

No, I've read several opeds on it.

FWIW, googled "did paterno lie" and got one blog entry on how he may or may have not forgotten about a telephone conversation.

[newtogolf]

Read the report, opeds are spins by the author on their interpretation of the report or position.  If you read the actual report you will see the facts and might see what Paterno and others did a bit differently than you do now.

If someone sets you on fire (sincerely hope it never happens) and I'm standing next to you with a fire extinguisher and choose to do nothing but watch you burn to death wouldn't you consider me just as guilty as the guy that set you on fire.

That's basically what Paterno and others did to Sandusky's victims.  They knew what Sandusky was doing, they had the power to stop him but for their own selfish reasons chose to do nothing while they knew kids were being molested and raped.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

No, I've read several opeds on it.

FWIW, googled "did paterno lie" and got one blog entry on how he may or may have not forgotten about a telephone conversation.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Read the report, opeds are spins by the author on their interpretation of the report or position.  If you read the actual report you will see the facts and might see what Paterno and others did a bit differently than you do now.

If someone sets you on fire (sincerely hope it never happens) and I'm standing next to you with a fire extinguisher and choose to do nothing but watch you burn to death wouldn't you consider me just as guilty as the guy that set you on fire.

That's basically what Paterno and others did to Sandusky's victims.  They knew what Sandusky was doing, they had the power to stop him but for their own selfish reasons chose to do nothing while they knew kids were being molested and raped.

Not even close. Immoral, but not nearly as culpable as the person who did set me on fire. But I agree with your last paragraph.

And the whole internet is up in arms about Joe Pa. I have not read one Pa-favourable oped yet. It's pretty safe to assume that the authors I read on would dig the worst on Paterno they could find.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Excerpts directly from the Freeh Report.  Regarding timeline of events:

May 3, 1998 - Sandusky assaults victim 6 in Lasch Building shower

May 4, 1998  - Curley notifies Shulz and Spanier that he has touched base with Paterno about the incident

August 1999 - Curley emails Spanier and Schultz, discussing Sandusky's retirement options.  "Joe did give him the option to coach as long as he was the coach."  and suggests the possibility of coaching 3 more seasons

February 9, 2001 - McQueary witnesses the assault on victim 2 in the Lasch Building shower

February 10, 2001 - McQueary reports the assault to Paterno.  Paterno tells McQueary, "you did what you had to do, it's my job to figure out what we want to do."

February 11. 2001 - Paterno reports the incident to Curley and Shultz, as Paterno did not want to interfere with their weekends

February 27, 2001 - Curley emails Shultz and Spanier and says he has changed his mind about the plan, "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Paterno yesterday."  Curley now proposes to tell Sandusky "we feel there is a problem" and offer him professional help."  "Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities."

August 2001 - Sandusky assaults victim 5 in Lasch Building shower

January 12, 2011 - Shultz, Paterno, and Curley testify before the grand jury

October 29, 2011 - Sandusky attends Penn State home football game and sits in Nittany Lion Club in Beaver Stadium

November 4, 2011 - Criminal charges filed against Sandusky

November 5, 2011 - Sandusky is arrested

November 9, 2011 - Board of Trustees removes Paterno as head football coach

Seriously there is no defending this stuff.  This is just the Paterno related stuff.  If you read the whole timeline you get a clear picture of an incredibly corrupt and out of control football-first culture that allowed these disgusting crimes to happen.  The kids on that campus crying victim, guarding Paterno's statue, and chanting "We are"  are complete morons.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Not even close. Immoral, but not nearly as culpable as the person who did set me on fire. But I agree with your last paragraph.

And the whole internet is up in arms about Joe Pa. I have not read one Pa-favourable oped yet. It's pretty safe to assume that the authors I read on would dig the worst on Paterno they could find.

So your responses to me this entire time have been based on "several other reports" that you read, and not the Freeh report?

Let me ask you something. If Paterno is so innocent and there is nothing against him, or no reason to feel ill-will towards him for "not blowing the whistle on a dodgy character" - why would Penn State's TVs magically be turned to a local public announcement just 45 seconds before the Freeh report was to be Live on ESPN?

Yahoo and DailyNews and other sources shouldn't really count. They're about as believable as TMZ or Bravo TV.

Paterno actively covered up a disgusting mess. You have not read one paterno-favorable article yet because anyone with common sense doesn't have anything favorable to say for the guy at this time.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

So, you honestly believe that if a man were to lift the lives of hundreds and thousands of people in a significant manner - put scores of families under drastically improved life conditions - but at the same time failed miserably to stop a much smaller number of children from being hurt, the good done no longer matters?

You're right - I went way above and beyond in my exaggeration of how regardless of how much good one does, covering up a sick act such as this will take ALL of that good back and make him a disgusting human being deserving of what he allowed to happen to others, to happen to he himself.

Paterno didn't come close to touching the lives of, let alone improving life conditions for, hundreds of thousands of people.

Say your son was involved in this case... would you still be so open minded towards Paterno? Knowing that he enabled Sandusky to torture your son? He enabled him by not stopping him.

With the stance that you are taking on this, you blame the Drug Dealer and not the Drug Users equally right? Guns kill people, people don't kill people right?

Paterno enabled Sandusky's pedophile ways by not stopping him and following through with the information that he had in his hands like any sane, honorable man would. Enablers are just as guilty in my opinion. If you go drinking with a recovering alcoholic and that alcoholic drives home and kills a family of 5, you share that responsibility. The people that walk away and say "F it, he should have known better... his problem not mine. I take no blame and I won't judge him for his actions either" are the people who go through life with their eyes closed and and have little to no impact on the world.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Not even close. Immoral, but not nearly as culpable as the person who did set me on fire. But I agree with your last paragraph.

And the whole internet is up in arms about Joe Pa. I have not read one Pa-favourable oped yet. It's pretty safe to assume that the authors I read on would dig the worst on Paterno they could find.

http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/

Go straight to the "Key Findings".

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Spyder

So your responses to me this entire time have been based on "several other reports" that you read, and not the Freeh report?

Let me ask you something. If Paterno is so innocent and there is nothing against him, or no reason to feel ill-will towards him for "not blowing the whistle on a dodgy character" - why would Penn State's TVs magically be turned to a local public announcement just 45 seconds before the Freeh report was to be Live on ESPN?

Yahoo and DailyNews and other sources shouldn't really count. They're about as believable as TMZ or Bravo TV.

Paterno actively covered up a disgusting mess. You have not read one paterno-favorable article yet because anyone with common sense doesn't have anything favorable to say for the guy at this time.

You're right - I went way above and beyond in my exaggeration of how regardless of how much good one does, covering up a sick act such as this will take ALL of that good back and make him a disgusting human being deserving of what he allowed to happen to others, to happen to he himself.

Paterno didn't come close to touching the lives of, let alone improving life conditions for, hundreds of thousands of people.

Say your son was involved in this case... would you still be so open minded towards Paterno? Knowing that he enabled Sandusky to torture your son? He enabled him by not stopping him.

With the stance that you are taking on this, you blame the Drug Dealer and not the Drug Users equally right? Guns kill people, people don't kill people right?

Paterno enabled Sandusky's pedophile ways by not stopping him and following through with the information that he had in his hands like any sane, honorable man would. Enablers are just as guilty in my opinion. If you go drinking with a recovering alcoholic and that alcoholic drives home and kills a family of 5, you share that responsibility. The people that walk away and say "F it, he should have known better... his problem not mine. I take no blame and I won't judge him for his actions either" are the people who go through life with their eyes closed and and have little to no impact on the world.

You have a blatant inherent bias on this issue. I read as far as "if Paterno is so innocent".

No one here is yet to make a claim that Pa is innocent

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Excerpts directly from the Freeh Report.  Regarding timeline of events:

May 3, 1998 - Sandusky assaults victim 6 in Lasch Building shower

May 4, 1998  - Curley notifies Shulz and Spanier that he has touched base with Paterno about the incident

August 1999 - Curley emails Spanier and Schultz, discussing Sandusky's retirement options.  "Joe did give him the option to coach as long as he was the coach."  and suggests the possibility of coaching 3 more seasons

February 9, 2001 - McQueary witnesses the assault on victim 2 in the Lasch Building shower

February 10, 2001 - McQueary reports the assault to Paterno.  Paterno tells McQueary, "you did what you had to do, it's my job to figure out what we want to do."

February 11. 2001 - Paterno reports the incident to Curley and Shultz, as Paterno did not want to interfere with their weekends

February 27, 2001 - Curley emails Shultz and Spanier and says he has changed his mind about the plan, "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Paterno yesterday."  Curley now proposes to tell Sandusky "we feel there is a problem" and offer him professional help."  "Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities."

August 2001 - Sandusky assaults victim 5 in Lasch Building shower

January 12, 2011 - Shultz, Paterno, and Curley testify before the grand jury

October 29, 2011 - Sandusky attends Penn State home football game and sits in Nittany Lion Club in Beaver Stadium

November 4, 2011 - Criminal charges filed against Sandusky

November 5, 2011 - Sandusky is arrested

November 9, 2011 - Board of Trustees removes Paterno as head football coach

Seriously there is no defending this stuff.  This is just the Paterno related stuff.  If you read the whole timeline you get a clear picture of an incredibly corrupt and out of control football-first culture that allowed these disgusting crimes to happen.  The kids on that campus crying victim, guarding Paterno's statue, and chanting "We are"  are complete morons.

I might look at the key findings later (should be working). But there was nothing there I wasn't aware of. Except the name of the building. I'll stress again, no denying that what Paterno did was inherently and deeply immoral. I am in no way even insinuating otherwise. And the corruption of the programme is also evident. I agree with that too.

What I don't agree with is any insinuation that Paterno is as guilty as Sandusky.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

I might look at the key findings later (should be working). But there was nothing there I wasn't aware of. Except the name of the building. I'll stress again, no denying that what Paterno did was inherently and deeply immoral. I am in no way even insinuating otherwise. And the corruption of the programme is also evident. I agree with that too.

What I don't agree with is any insinuation that Paterno is as guilty as Sandusky.

I've never said that.  I really don't know of many people that are saying that.  It's clear that Paterno was a key enabler for Sandusky.  It's clear that PSU was more worried about it's football program than preventing/stopping child rape in it's facilities.  It's clear that a good amount of the student body at PSU still doesn't get it, and continues to blindly worship Paterno while they make themselves the victims.