My Swing (Beachcomber)

[Ernest Jones]

Looking forward to hereing your take on the Pipoe. I'm tempted to get one because I see how it can help work on my present issue AND I can see how it can help with my future issues. At the same time and can't get the little voice in my head to stop saying, "$30 plus shipping for a ball??"

Holy crap. My apologizes for the horrible spelling and typos. It was very early in the morning. :-0 [quote name="Beachcomber" url="/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/500_100#post_893991"] For sure. I was in the same boat for a LONG time. And didn't think the Pipoe would be worth the money. But I was too lazy to go shopping for a nerf ball, or a small ball to do the same thing as the Pipoe. I finally pulled the trigger on the Pipoe after feeling like I had hit a wall, and gotten as far as I could on my own feels, and needed something like the Pipoe to give me a more extreme feel. When I secure the Pipoe properly between the elbows, it actually feels like I'm flexing my pecs to keep my right and left elbows close. Almost like flexing your chest when you do flys with dumb bells on a bench. The pec feel is definitely new for me, and I like that as when I do swing rehearsals in front of the mirror, with the Pipoe, my geo's look nearly perfect. That's a big confidence booster because I know I'm getting the proper position. Now I just need to do it hitting balls.[/quote] Good to know. The internal debate rages on...

[Beachcomber]

A few practice swings from tonight's range session... Worked with the Pipoe which was hilarious.  I can't swing more than 1/3 speed and keep it between my elbows.  My swing feels so foreign right now.

When I hit it well, it is awesome.  When I don't hit it well, well...

One thing I noticed in the down the line swing... When I really try and get extension in the back swing, like in the following photo... My head leans into the ball.  Then on the downswing, my head pulls back away from the ball, and when the timing is good - I hit the ball really well.  When my timing is off... Ummmm.

I'm going to keep working on this pivot - with extension and use my head on the wall and see if I can clean this shit up... Ugggh  so frustrating.

Head on the wall drill... Using the Pipoe to keep my PP4/PP5!!!  YES!!!  DO IT!!! DO IT UNTIL YOU HAVE A RED SPOT ON YOUR FOREHEAD YOU TOOL!!!

[iacas]

One thing I noticed in the down the line swing... When I really try and get extension in the back swing, like in the following photo... My head leans into the ball.  Then on the downswing, my head pulls back away from the ball, and when the timing is good - I hit the ball really well.  When my timing is off... Ummmm.

So feel like your head goes back a little and doesn't go forward on the backswing. Less extension.

Paging JetFan… He will have something to say about this.

[Beachcomber]

So feel like your head goes back a little and doesn't go forward on the backswing. Less extension.

Good point. Question for you... Curious what you think... Did that 1/3 speed swing with the Pipoe really fix my goat humping?  That was the cleanest A8 I've ever witnessed of myself!

Now if I could only replicate that at full speed!!!

[iacas]

Good point. Question for you... Curious what you think... Did that 1/3 speed swing with the Pipoe really fix my goat humping?  That was the cleanest A8 I've ever witnessed of myself!

I didn't watch it. :)

I'm playing some good golf myself feeling like my head moves backwards four inches during the start of my backswing. It doesn't, of course. Nor does Constantine's…

[mvmac]

So feel like your head goes back a little and doesn't go forward on the backswing. Less extension.

Less extension, sounds familiar

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_845871

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_851212'

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_851738

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/486#post_859098

[JetFan1983]

One thing I noticed in the down the line swing... When I really try and get extension in the back swing, like in the following photo... My head leans into the ball.  Then on the downswing, my head pulls back away from the ball, and when the timing is good - I hit the ball really well.  When my timing is off... Ummmm.

Re: that photo.

It's not uncommon to see S&T; students overdo the "steep shoulder tilt" on the backswing. Actually, you might see it any golfer who has heard this tip. I overdo it, but less so these days. Remember, the flatter you turn your shoulders, the more likely your head is to translate back and up. The steeper you turn your shoulders, the more likely your head is to dip down (and in some S&T; cases forward).

You need to find a feel that actually keeps it steady. For me, like Erik said, it's feeling like my head is translating back and up, and that I'm turning my shoulders somewhat level.

I worked on this with James, and he actually had me focus a bit on my right hip too, but I for the life of me cannot remember why we did that. But I'll try to guess....

So I think I have this issue with my right leg straightening too soon in the backswing, so feeling a bit of the stupid "X-Factor" crap actually kind of helps me keep my head steadier.... because my tendency is to dip the head forward.... also my weight tends to go into my right heel too much going back.... I think I'm getting off-topic now, but I'm just trying to jog my memory over why he had me do this.

Actually, I can already tell I'm butchering his explanation because this is something we worked on for only 10-15 minutes towards the end of the day and it wasn't so much a priority as it was something he wanted me to be, at the very least, aware of.

But I will add this as well re: the head coming up on the downswing rather than staying steady. Fixing the backswing goes a long way towards improving this, in terms of not dipping the head forward, and I do recall James mentioning this briefly to me when we worked on this.

Me: I'm concerned about my head coming up on the downswing though.

James: Yea, but if we fix the backswing, you're less likely to pop up as much if the head didn't dip forward to begin with.

Me: OK, makes sense.

Or something along those lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

One thing I noticed in the down the line swing... When I really try and get extension in the back swing, like in the following photo... My head leans into the ball.  Then on the downswing, my head pulls back away from the ball, and when the timing is good - I hit the ball really well.  When my timing is off... Ummmm.

So feel like your head goes back a little and doesn't go forward on the backswing. Less extension.

Paging JetFan…  He will have something to say about this.

I'm trying, but James kept it super, super simple when we worked on this, and I was so much in "stupid monkey" mode I did not ask why or press for any details. I just tried out a bunch of feels and when he liked what I was doing, he'd say "yes, keep doing that!" so that's what I stuck with.

On the backswing, it feels like my head is moving up . Like I coming out of my address posture. And yes, it feels alien. And very scary... like I won't be able to hit the ball. I guess this is another reason why changes are tough.

Anyway, it's tough to discuss over the net because I saw James for two full days, and we obviously talked about a lot during those 12-14 total hours that we hung out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Good point. Question for you... Curious what you think... Did that 1/3 speed swing with the Pipoe really fix my goat humping?  That was the cleanest A8 I've ever witnessed of myself!

I didn't watch it. :)

I'm playing some good golf myself feeling like my head moves backwards four inches during the start of my backswing. It doesn't, of course. Nor does Constantine's…

Yea, Mike (mvmac)  really helped me with this fix thru evolvr.

For me, it's understanding that the shoulder turn not only has to go down, but back too. So the visual for me is seeing my left shoulder reach the middle of my stance, at some point in the backswing.

And James would constantly stress practicing in front of a mirror to see what I was doing while I was doing it. Like in my living room or something.

My head still comes up on the downswing, but it's funny because I'm also trying to get all my pressure/weight forward to the finish, and a lot of that has to do with releasing the steady head piece and continuing to turn. You'll notice Tiger really pops out of his posture well after the ball is gone to keep turning and getting all his weight onto his front foot by the time his swing is over.*

* I could be wrong about this part, but if there's one thing James and I made fun of during Day 2 of the clinic, it was S&T; pros looking like idiots still relatively in their address posture/inclination to the ground during their finish positions.

Did this help at all? I feel like I may have missed the point here, or wasn't as direct or clear as I could have been...

[JetFan1983]

My head still comes up on the downswing, but it's funny because I'm also trying to get all my pressure/weight forward to the finish, and a lot of that has to do with releasing the steady head piece and continuing to turn. You'll notice Tiger really pops out of his posture well after the ball is gone to keep turning and getting all his weight onto his front foot by the time his swing is over.*

* I could be wrong about this part, but if there's one thing James and I made fun of during Day 2 of the clinic, it was S&T; pros looking like idiots still relatively in their address posture/inclination to the ground during their finish positions.

OK, maybe I am WAY off on this... sorry, I'm super off-topic too.... I think doing this is good sometimes, and bad others? I remember Mike telling me to do this once during evolvr, and James said more of the same during the clinic. But at the same time, keeping it stable the entire time is probably good too... hmmmm.

Sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone or anything. Perhaps this isn't the place to have this discussion, but since I went on a tangent for a second there and brought this up, I felt I needed to add an addendum to the above post.

[Beachcomber]

The left photo - you can see I have accomplished the connected arms - as I'm not as deep with the upper - but the lower is fully extended (right leg nearly straight).

The right photo - you can see I have deeper arms - but less extension (right leg isn't as straight - and hip isn't as deep).

My issue is what is the priority here?  Do I need deeper right hip - with more extension as I was originally told - but keep the arms connected (Pipoe should help with the arms).  Or do I need to just focus on the arms?  Seriously... There is contradiction so it's creating confusion.

Telling me to get the right hip deeper to help with the sequencing (Evolvr and post in this thread) - then showing the right femur angle - with 'much more turned' upper seems to be a contradiction to what I was trying to work on?

Again, I was trying to:

1.) Get a deeper right hip turn - to enable the right elbow to get into my belly on the down swing.

2.) Keep arms connected - which would prevent 'much more turn' - and reduce the upper torso turn which would prevent the right arm from traveling behind the shirt seam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Less extension, sounds familiar

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_845871

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_851212'

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/450#post_851738

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54404/my-swing-beachcomber/486#post_859098

Scrapping all this extension stuff and going back to Key #1.  I can't lean into the ball on the back swing... As that is leading to death shots on the course.

[Beachcomber]

For me, it's understanding that the shoulder turn not only has to go down, but back too. So the visual for me is seeing my left shoulder reach the middle of my stance, at some point in the backswing.

Did this help at all? I feel like I may have missed the point here, or wasn't as direct or clear as I could have been...

Jet, lots of similarities in issues... Thanks for posting.  But this piece for me is the most helpful (bold).

I play really good golf when I have this visual - left shoulder getting under my chin - with a steady head.  I need to get back to that visual because I've been trying to get so much extension on the backswing with my right leg and trying to get that right hip deeper, that it was causing some contact issues (head leaning into the ball on the back swing).  Ultimately this was leading to heel side contact - and the dreaded shank would rear its ugly head every now and then.

I'll do some more drills and try and feel like my head is pulling away from the wall on the backswing and see how that does.

[mvmac]

Do I need more disassociation with my hips and upper?  Because when I was told to get my right hip deeper, to keep the turning rates in sequence... I was thinking that I needed to look more like the left (below photo). Trying to extend the the right side - but keep my arms more connected.

The left photo - you can see I have accomplished the connected arms - as I'm not as deep with the upper - but the lower is fully extended (right leg nearly straight).

The right photo - you can see I have deeper arms - but less extension (right leg isn't as straight - and hip isn't as deep).

No the right pic is the after pic, the good pic, reason why it says "Better on the right".  The right hip is deeper in the right pic.  Remember what we talked about, right hip to the median line(tailbone).  Deeper doesn't mean sliding more to the right.  Extension (without enough turn) will work against you keeping the elbows together or the right elbow in front of the shirt seam.  We've said this a few times.  Basically you need more Zach Johnson and less Colin Montgomerie.

My issue is what is the priority here?  Do I need deeper right hip - with more extension as I was originally told - but keep the arms connected (Pipoe should help with the arms).  Or do I need to just focus on the arms?  Seriously... There is contradiction so it's creating confusion.

Telling me to get the right hip deeper to help with the sequencing (Evolvr and post in this thread) - then showing the right femur angle - with 'much more turned' upper seems to be a contradiction to what I was trying to work on?

Again, I was trying to:

1.) Get a deeper right hip turn - to enable the right elbow to get into my belly on the down swing.

2.) Keep arms connected - which would prevent 'much more turn' - and reduce the upper torso turn which would prevent the right arm from traveling behind the shirt seam.

Again you were never told more extension, I remember some posts telling you to turn more in flexion.  I'll re-send you the video review I did from June, feel free to post it in this thread if you like.

I like the Pipoe because I think it helps with what we've talked about and allows you to exaggerate the arms on the downswing.  I have no problem with the head feeling like it goes back a little from 1-4.

[iacas]

Uhm, what Mike said.

Because it's the same things Mike and I have been saying for six months now. :D

We kid because we care! :D

[Beachcomber]

I'll re-send you the video review I did from June, feel free to post it in this thread if you like.

Mike thank you for resending the video. I watched it this morning. And after reading the last few post you made a light bulb went off. So today when I played, I focused on keeping the left side on the start line or alignment stick. Wow. It worked like a charm, and I hit the ball 300x better than I did last Saturday when I was trying the extension stuff. Result....76 from the tips. +2 differential. I'll take that every day. I was hitting some fabulous golf shots and felt like I could go really low with this golf swing.

[iacas]

Great! Keep it up. Remember Key #1 is relatively steady, and for better players a head that goes forward during the backswing is often much worse than a head that drifts a little back in the backswing.

[Beachcomber]

Here is the latest set of swings... I left some pre-shot rehearsals into the video, which can be found in the first minute of the video.  The pre-shot rehearsal is what I'm trying to blend into my actual swing.  In particular the way I load the accumulators in the rehearsal - and the shaft is more vertical instead of being laid off.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a swing captured where I nail that move - yet.

I feel like the Pipoe is helping me with the elbow spacing a lot.  I don't know... Maybe I'm too excited, but I feel like I'm actually making some progress again.  And one of the keys mvmac had me working on was #2 - and keeping weight forward - trying to keep that hip on the start line has really helped me.  I'm not 100% nailing the weight forward - even on the backswing... But I'm getting closer and closer.

Here's a snapshot from an Evolvr video mvmac has me going back and working to incorporate the Key #2 feel...

[mvmac]

Here is the latest set of swings... I left some pre-shot rehearsals into the video, which can be found in the first minute of the video.  The pre-shot rehearsal is what I'm trying to blend into my actual swing.  In particular the way I load the accumulators in the rehearsal - and the shaft is more vertical instead of being laid off.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a swing captured where I nail that move - yet.

IMO the best the right elbow has looked on a full speed swing.  Notice on the posterior view how it doesn't look "bunchy" like the before swing.  Pretty good with the sequencing.  Hips still shift back a little but it's better.

Shaft looks "on plane" to me at the top of the backswing.  If the shaft is short of parallel to the ground, which it is, perfectly ok for it to be pointed a little left.

Check this out, lightsaber battle

And one of the keys mvmac had me working on was #2 - and keeping weight forward - trying to keep that hip on the start line has really helped me.  I'm not 100% nailing the weight forward - even on the backswing... But I'm getting closer and closer.

Here's a snapshot from an Evolvr video mvmac has me going back and working to incorporate the Key #2 feel...

Ok to clarify for other people ;-)  I never said anything about Key#2 on the backswing.  If that's a FEEL to keep the hips turning and more centered, then great.  We definitely don't want weight forward on the backswing.

[Beachcomber]

Ok to clarify for other people ;-)  I never said anything about Key#2 on the backswing.  If that's a FEEL to keep the hips turning and more centered, then great.  We definitely don't want weight forward on the backswing.

No, you told me to breakout my S&T; videos, and keep the weight forward!   I keed! I keed!!

Sorry for bringing Key #2 into focus on that post above... Yes, you are 100% correct, you just said if that's my FEEL like its on the left, to keep the centered hip turn.... Then roll with it.  My bad for creating the confusion...

Ok so now lets dissect some other goods....

IMO the best the right elbow has looked on a full speed swing.  Notice on the posterior view how it doesn't look "bunchy" like the before swing.  Pretty good with the sequencing.  Hips still shift back a little but it's better.

It's interesting how the pros do such a fabulous job of getting that elbow back into the ribs from A5 to A6.  For reference, and for those that are reading this thread.... Here is Gary Woodland from A4 (Top) to A7 (Impact).... Look at how he gets that right elbow back into his belly so nicely at A6.  That's something I'm trying to fix to better my ball striking.

Shaft looks "on plane" to me at the top of the backswing.  If the shaft is short of parallel to the ground, which it is, perfectly ok for it to be pointed a little left.

Check this out, lightsaber battle

Yes, I guess the shaft doesn't look too laid off when depicted side by side with Mac vs Zach in Jedi Knight fashion like that! (Look at those pants! .......... LOL)  Good stuff and thanks for bringing that to my attention.

But the rehearsal swing on the left, just looks like it has clean geo's compared to the right.  Plus I hate how gimpy that closed clubface looks in comparison... I just looks 'gimpy' to me.  I know there are a lot of good players playing with a closed club face, but its something that has bugged me for - well - two years now!

Is it a PP4 issue with how I'm loading the club?  Looks like my attachment goes 'deeper' into the frame (inward) on the real swings, which leads to that club shaft shifting off to the left.  I'm wondering because my tempo is a little quicker than most, that combined with the fact that I'm overloading PP4, that it leads to that shaft kicking out to the left at the top??  Just curious and wondering what others think...

When I do the swing rehearsals - I'm going slower, and use the alignment stick on the ground as a reference point of the plane line... And it helps me properly load PP4 from A2 to A4.  But when I'm swinging the golf club... At a ball... I focus on the ball - and my loading of PP4 (A2 to A4) must be different?

Could too much PP4 be the culprit of why that elbow gets stuck at A6 - and leads to the Goat Humping Festival of Orange County??  Inquiring minds would like to know...

[mvmac]

But the rehearsal swing on the left, just looks like it has clean geo's compared to the right.  Plus I hate how gimpy that closed clubface looks in comparison... I just looks 'gimpy' to me.  I know there are a lot of good players playing with a closed club face, but its something that has bugged me for - well - two years now!

Is it a PP4 issue with how I'm loading the club?  Looks like my attachment goes 'deeper' into the frame (inward) on the real swings, which leads to that club shaft shifting off to the left.  I'm wondering because my tempo is a little quicker than most, that combined with the fact that I'm overloading PP4, that it leads to that shaft kicking out to the left at the top??  Just curious and wondering what others think...

When I do the swing rehearsals - I'm going slower, and use the alignment stick on the ground as a reference point of the plane line... And it helps me properly load PP4 from A2 to A4.  But when I'm swinging the golf club... At a ball... I focus on the ball - and my loading of PP4 (A2 to A4) must be different?

Could too much PP4 be the culprit of why that elbow gets stuck at A6 - and leads to the Goat Humping Festival of Orange County??  Inquiring minds would like to know...

I think what we have to take away is that getting A4 better, right elbow/hips, has improved impact.  You're consistently hitting it more solid.  Making A4 better doesn't automatically make the downswing perfect.  "Fixing" the whole thing is just going to take time and a lot of reps.  You're actually in a pretty good position compared to most golfers, you know what you need to do and just keep working on it.  And in the meantime you can still play good golf.

I don't think your overload PP4 or PA4.  I don't think there is a "culprit", it's more of something you've been doing for years and having the right elbow a little behind you at A6 feels normal.  The camera view of Gary Woodland is going to skew things and hide more of his right elbow.  Here is Rock and Grant, yes elbow is further forward than yours but it's not in front of their stomachs.

When I do the swing rehearsals - I'm going slower, and use the alignment stick on the ground as a reference point of the plane line... And it helps me properly load PP4 from A2 to A4.  But when I'm swinging the golf club... At a ball... I focus on the ball - and my loading of PP4 (A2 to A4) must be different?

Having the shaft match up with the stick on the ground would actually be "off plane".  Think if you had a laser pointer on the butt of your club.  A shaft aimed left at A4 would be pointing at baseline.  If it was parallel to the stick on the ground, it wouldn't be pointed at baseline.  Trying to have the shaft parallel to the stick on the ground would actually work against what you're trying to do with the right elbow.

The reason the club is shut at A4 is just because the wrist conditions are different than the practice swing, more right wrist dorsi flexion, more left palmar flexion.  That can also get the shaft pointed left.  Overall the arm positions and torso turn look really good at A4.