Golf Downswing Sequencing

[mvmac]

Got a couple requests for a downswing video after the last couple vids I did.  Check it out, lots of good info.  This is just providing theory discussion and about what happens in an efficient downswing.  Not trying to tell you, as a student or golfer, what to feel or do but rather what to look for.

[secondary]

Mike,

Trying to make this question as coherent as I can to tie into this video.  As Grant is starting down and you stop and rewind a few times to show him "pressuring" into the ground, you say something to the effect of, he is as far forward as he is going to get, from here it just becomes rotational.  This element of the downswing is always a bit confusing for me.  As someone who needs to get more left all the time, I have been setting up more and more with MOST of my weight left.  The problem for me is (actually tons of problems that you will see shortly as I am heading south for xmas and actually get to swing a club and video something for Evolver) the thought or feeling of crushing the can. If you have a majority of your weight already there, what is another feeling or pharse you might use to keep the lead knee bent?  I have heard push your lead knee forward (towards target) before, but haven't really found much success with that as a swing thought.  In all likely hood I probably need to slide hips even more forward, but the crush the can term really hasn't clicked.

I am asking this in general terms for discussion.  As it pertains to me individually, new video in the next two weeks.  Then I can work on what my REAL problem is instead of my make believe problem that I imagine as I look out over frozen lake and snow covered ground!

[Mr. Desmond]

Thank you, Mike.

Interesting, the head doesn't raise until past extension.

I shot myself on video and saw my arms between my neck and right shoulder -- too high -- any drills so that I finish more to the left?

Another embarrassing question -- saw my butt go towards the ball in the downswing -- it seems that when you tuck, you'll do that -- or am I in error ... again?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by secondary

Mike,

Trying to make this question as coherent as I can to tie into this video.  As Grant is starting down and you stop and rewind a few times to show him "pressuring" into the ground, you say something to the effect of, he is as far forward as he is going to get, from here it just becomes rotational.  This element of the downswing is always a bit confusing for me.  As someone who needs to get more left all the time, I have been setting up more and more with MOST of my weight left.  The problem for me is (actually tons of problems that you will see shortly as I am heading south for xmas and actually get to swing a club and video something for Evolver) the thought or feeling of crushing the can. If you have a majority of your weight already there, what is another feeling or pharse you might use to keep the lead knee bent?  I have heard push your lead knee forward (towards target) before, but haven't really found much success with that as a swing thought.  In all likely hood I probably need to slide hips even more forward, but the crush the can term really hasn't clicked.

I am asking this in general terms for discussion.  As it pertains to me individually, new video in the next two weeks.  Then I can work on what my REAL problem is instead of my make believe problem that I imagine as I look out over frozen lake and snow covered ground!

Thanks for the question.  Too much weight forward too soon isn't something we want either.  It throws off the sequencing and makes the motion less dynamic.  We'll see golfers extend the lead leg too early, tip the upper center back to create some 2nd axis tilt in order to shallow out the hit.   Start seeing this http://thesandtrap.com/t/54115/weight-forward-and-secondary-axis-tilt

We want a gradual progression of weight or pressure being applied forward.  For yourself or anyone that might feel that they have too much weight/pressure forward at the top of the swing, there is a good chance the head is moving forward and the left shoulder isn't going back enough.  Also try and do the opposite by feeling the pressure in your feet.  At home make a back swing where 80% is on the rear foot, take a mental "note", then go 80% lead foot.  Try that a couple times to get an idea of the polar opposites and then make some that are close to 50/50 getting the left shoulder under the chin.  Can also find a wing of your house or beam and swing with your the left side of your head against the beam to keep it centered.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Thank you, Mike.

Interesting, the head doesn't raise until past extension.

I shot myself on video and saw my arms between my neck and right shoulder -- too high -- any drills so that I finish more to the left?

Another embarrassing question -- saw my butt go towards the ball in the downswing -- it seems that when you tuck, you'll do that -- or am I in error ... again?

Great observation, yes ideally the head stays as close to level as possible.  This happens because the hips are going forward, releasing the 1st tilt to kick in the 2nd tilt (axis tilt).  This is how we extend, rotate on an incline plane.

For what you're seeing with your swing, check the clip below.  The butt tucks into the followthrough due to the hips forward and the legs extending.  When you see that move towards the ball or "off the wall" as we say you are not maintaining your inclination.  In terms of the sequencing, you are not RE-gaining flexion on the downswing.  What you are doing to cause that can be a few things but from the top of the back swing P4- P5 Left arm parallel to the ground, the left shoulder won't rise as the left arm lowers and gains distance from the right shoulder (4th Power Accumulator).  Ties into why you are seeing the arms too high into the followthrough.

[secondary]

Yep, on the money.  My head goes down for sure.  I notice the problems much more as the clubs get longer and I am supposed to set up with more weight left.  Ugliness ensues with the Driver.  2 years ago Iteach had me set up with more secondary axis tilt and just go from there, but I lost my way.  Thanks for the quick answer.

[Tiger90]

The backswing has the exact opposite sequence as the downswing.

On the Backswing starts,

the club head

your hands

your shoulders and arms

then your hips

Once you get to the top it goes,

hips first      (clearing the hips creates coil and creates lots of distance)

then your shoulders

arms

hands

and then the club head last  (lag on the club helps hit down on the ball and make solid contact)

When it comes to moving your head down on the downswing, this is actually a very good move for power.  And you will see lots of long ball hitters do this, Tiger has a big dip.  This dip helps you get lower to the ground, to push off of and create extra power....NOTE, DONT DO THIS ELIMINATES ACCURACY, but if you are good enough and can do this while staying over the ball and make solid contact, you will get more power.  But if you have trouble driving, i dont reccomend this

[Tiger90]

and yes his leg extension in that video at the moment of impact is how you get extra power and also hit the ball solid, that is a good video

[Mr. Desmond]

Wow.

Thanks, Mike.

Can't wait to try it ...

(as he moves table and gets tripod and video camera out in living room. It's great to be single ... sometimes)

My shoulder was going up at the beginning of the downswing because of my mistaken interpretation of the hip slide - the secondary axis tilt is coming too soon?

[GrahamD]

When I start my downsing I feel like im pulling down with my arms and getting my hands to and through the ball before my hips clear, now this may sound ridiculous to some but this is the feeling I need because I have an extreamely explosive lower body and I have difficulty keeping it under control at times, Tiger woods had the exact same swing thought for his downswing back in 2000 when he won everything

[GoldenBearCub]

Somebody's probably mentioned it in other terms, but three simple words right here: Pull that pocket!

That right pocket (left pocket if you're a misfit) should rotate, not slide, slightly before your arms, creating some lag and in turn, some nice distance bonuses.

Stay Classy.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by GoldenBearCub

Somebody's probably mentioned it in other terms, but three simple words right here: Pull that pocket!

That right pocket (left pocket if you're a misfit) should rotate, not slide, slightly before your arms, creating some lag and in turn, some nice distance bonuses.

Stay Classy.

First off, can't find a major champion that has just rotated and not had the hips go forward from the top of the down swing to impact.  The slide, setup by pressing into the ground with the lead foot/knee, gives the golfer a better chance to get the left wrist flat at impact.  Also helps to properly create the Secondary Axis Tilt

[dalabera]

Ok that seems what must people tries to do. On my case for the downswing when I do hip first my clubs get behind and end up hitting the ball with the face open. I do have a couple of questions when I have finished my backswing and move to the down swing my butt should not move forward or backwards, right? I'm a rigth hand golfer so on the downswing Does my rigth arm should be close if not touching my hip/waist?

Originally Posted by Tiger90

The backswing has the exact opposite sequence as the downswing.

On the Backswing starts,

the club head

your hands

your shoulders and arms

then your hips

Once you get to the top it goes,

hips first      (clearing the hips creates coil and creates lots of distance)

then your shoulders

arms

hands

and then the club head last  (lag on the club helps hit down on the ball and make solid contact)

[Mikeod5785]

Buckle,Sit,Slide,Bump

[Titleist72]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Buckle,Sit,Slide,Bump

explain this please

[colin007]

Question for Mike or Erik- Is there any benefit of pausing at P4 for a split second before coming back down? I see this mentioned a lot.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by colin007

Question for Mike or Erik-

Is there any benefit of pausing at P4 for a split second before coming back down? I see this mentioned a lot.

Tough to answer because it depends on the player's needs and what your definition of pause is.  I would generally say no, there isn't a benefit to thinking about a pause or adding a pause at A4, there is a change of direction but "stopping" the motion can only wreck the sequencing.

I think you hear about this a lot because players are taught to take the club straight back and keep the right knee at the same flex as it was at address.  So you have the arms lifting off the torso with a shallow hip turn, very tough to make that motion consistent, maybe a pause at the top helps give the player a chance to get the rates in order?  I don't know, not something I would use very often, if at all.  To me that's fixing the compensation rather than fixing the problem.

[Beachcomber]

colin007... It's simple.  The transition at P4 should be similar to a dubstep. Wickedly smooth. Watch this video for inspiration.

[gwlee7]

^^ I moved like that the last time I saw a copperhead in my back yard.