Question RE: Stack and Tilt

[mcdanrl]

Two weeks ago I began a swing change and I decided to go with the stack and tilt. It was amazing the success I was having controlling my irons and getting a draw on the ball. The only part I am confused about the swing is the takeaway. Once you begin your back swing should you ever feel like there is weight transitioning from your front side to your back? I understand that you generate your power from your hip slide. But once I take my stance and have my weight on the front side of my body it never really feels like it leaves. I hope this question makes sense.

Thanks,

RM

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by mcdanrl

Once you begin your back swing should you ever feel like there is weight transitioning from your front side to your back?

"Feel isn't real," as we say. What you feel like you're doing likely isn't what you're actually doing. This is true for pretty much everyone who has never seen their swing on film, has never taken a lesson from a good instructor, etc. etc. Who knows what it should or shouldn't feel like, you know? We're all different in that regard. Technically speaking, the weight does shift back in a S&T; backswing, whether or not it  doesn't "feels like it" or not. The club and your arms all weigh a decent amount.

You can feel whatever you want as long as your head isn't translating back and your shoulders are turning steep enough. Confirm with video.

Originally Posted by mcdanrl

I understand that you generate your power from your hip slide. But once I take my stance and have my weight on the front side of my body it never really feels like it leaves.

That's fine. People who struggle with too much weight shifting back probably have to feel like 90% of their weight is staying on their front foot -- just so the backswing can stay centered. In your case, I can't really say how your feel relates to your actual swing since, well, I've never seen it .

If you use a camera or a S&T; instructor, you can find out how your feel actually relates to your swing. Very key. Then you can actually know what your feel is doing, and that leads to being able to make changes.

[mcdanrl]

Thanks for the reply! I think what I am really trying to say is that I don't feel like I am generating much power from the back side of my body. Before I began practicing the S&T; I was always taught to really crank off that back leg. While practicing the S&T; it just doesn't seem like that back side is really being used. My hips do though.

[JetFan1983]

Ahh, okay, I see what you're saying. There's enough power in the S&T; pattern to play any course. Troy Matteson averaged 300.2 yards off the tee in 2011. What's likely is that you're losing power somewhere else in your swing.

Have you checked out this thread yet about how to film your swing and then post it on the forum? The community would be able to see what it is you're doing. Probability says something else is causing you to lose power.

[james_hirshfield]

Standard slight push draw.

Weight 55-45 Left at setup (P1).

By top of the backswing (P4), the lower COG should have transferred forward 1 inch making the weight 60-40 left, with the upper axis stable.

If a golfer is really struggling with slicing/hitting behind the ball, we may start with up to 70/80% of the weight forward and it NEVER moving back. Just staying forward, then extending into the follow through.

Agreed, if you are losing power, check the basic list... Hands inward? right leg/hip extending to allow the hips and shoulders to turn? Extending in the follow through?

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

By top of the backswing (P4), the lower COG should have transferred forward 1 inch making the weight 60-40 left, with the upper axis stable.

So...you are saying the weight actually goes left and not right during the backswing? This seems to fly in the face of the advice given by JetFan1983 above. I had this discussion with a fellow pro the other day and he mentioned, similar to JetFan1983, that the weight has to go right during the backswing as your arms and the club weigh quite a bit and are now on your right side.

Does anybody have the results of any tests taken on weight transference?

[michaeljames92]

I'm not sure it really matters, as long as your head doesn't move and your front knee moves straight out

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

So...you are saying the weight actually goes left and not right during the backswing? This seems to fly in the face of the advice given by JetFan1983 above. I had this discussion with a fellow pro the other day and he mentioned, similar to JetFan1983, that the weight has to go right during the backswing as your arms and the club weigh quite a bit and are now on your right side.

Does anybody have the results of any tests taken on weight transference?

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

I'm not sure it really matters, as long as your head doesn't move and your front knee moves straight out

Yeah, I know what you are saying but I'd like to prove my colleague wrong or forget we ever had the conversation!

[michaeljames92]

I think iacas originally said the weight moves back, but I think they used force plates and proved that more pressure was on the front foot. But that could be influenced by pushing into the ground with the front foot which would give erroneous results.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Yeah, I know what you are saying but I'd like to prove my colleague wrong or forget we ever had the conversation!

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

I think iacas originally said the weight moves back, but I think they used force plates and proved that more pressure was on the front foot. But that could be influenced by pushing into the ground with the front foot which would give erroneous results.

OK, that makes sense. Thanks. I'll have a look around the forum and see if I can find that thread.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

So...you are saying the weight actually goes left and not right during the backswing? This seems to fly in the face of the advice given by JetFan1983 above. I had this discussion with a fellow pro the other day and he mentioned, similar to JetFan1983, that the weight has to go right during the backswing as your arms and the club weigh quite a bit and are now on your right side.

Does anybody have the results of any tests taken on weight transference?

Yes.

What James is talking about is pure "model" stuff. Mike and Andy say 55/45 at setup, then at P4 60/40. But they would also say that the hips have started to move forward from about P3.5, so that accounts for some of the movement.

If you set up 50/50, swings that produce 60/40 or 40/60 at the top look virtually identical. You can pose there and barely feel that you're moving any weight and the scales will jump all over the place, very quickly. Hold one pose that's 40/60, take a picture, hold another pose that's 60/40, and very little is different.

So long as your head doesn't move and you can get your weight forward at impact and beyond, we don't care a whole lot whether you're 40/60 or 60/40. More weight left (via the hips - not via the head - important!) would be a bit more of the "Troy" pattern and would help to guarantee the path out to the right most.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

So...you are saying the weight actually goes left and not right during the backswing? This seems to fly in the face of the advice given by JetFan1983 above. I had this discussion with a fellow pro the other day and he mentioned, similar to JetFan1983, that the weight has to go right during the backswing as your arms and the club weigh quite a bit and are now on your right side.

Does anybody have the results of any tests taken on weight transference?

There has been some discussion with Erik on here in the past of Weight vs Pressure .  When we're talking about about 55/45 we're basically talking about pressure in our feet or COG alignments, easier way to explain it to the "masses" to say weight 60/40 rather than move your Lower COG 1 inch forward.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

What James is talking about is pure "model" stuff. Mike and Andy say 55/45 at setup, then at P4 60/40. But they would also say that the hips have started to move forward from about P3.5, so that accounts for some of the movement.

If you set up 50/50, swings that produce 60/40 or 40/60 at the top look virtually identical. You can pose there and barely feel that you're moving any weight and the scales will jump all over the place, very quickly. Hold one pose that's 40/60, take a picture, hold another pose that's 60/40, and very little is different.

So long as your head doesn't move and you can get your weight forward at impact and beyond, we don't care a whole lot whether you're 40/60 or 60/40. More weight left (via the hips - not via the head - important!) would be a bit more of the "Troy" pattern and would help to guarantee the path out to the right most.

Originally Posted by mvmac

There has been some discussion with Erik on here in the past of Weight vs Pressure.  When we're talking about about 55/45 we're basically talking about pressure in our feet or COG alignments, easier way to explain it to the "masses" to say weight 60/40 rather than move your Lower COG 1 inch forward.

Perfectly clear, gentlemen. Thank you for the explanations. I had a feeling we were talking more pressure than actual pounds (kilos over here!).

[james_hirshfield]

I remember Erik and I were experimenting on two scales (not pressure plates), one for each foot during the summer.

P4, weight was on left foot. Needle was higher on WEIGHT scale of left foot.

Erik can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but like he said, moving the hips SLIGHTLY back or forward made a surprising difference in the weight distribution.

Pressure would definitely be left, especially in transition as the transfers kick in, but weight is left too.

Mike explained very well, easy to say to masses 60/40

James

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Perfectly clear, gentlemen. Thank you for the explanations. I had a feeling we were talking more pressure than actual pounds (kilos over here!).

[JetFan1983]

I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up, guys.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

P4, weight was on left foot. Needle was higher on WEIGHT scale of left foot.

Erik can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but like he said, moving the hips SLIGHTLY back or forward made a surprising difference in the weight distribution.

Yes to both. This was around the time when we were postulating that because the arms and chest swung back to the right, you might feel pressure left but the "weight" would actually be shifted slightly to the right. That turned out not to be the case at all.

Though, as James and I said, very, very subtle moves in the hips accounted for a good shifting of weight right or left.

[mcdanrl]

Hey Guys,

I took your information to the range a few times this weekend and MAN oh MAN I was striking my short irons unbelievable! One problem I was having was I could not straighten out my long irons or hybrids. I was pushing them left instead of having slight draw. Anyone know of any drills I could do to work on this?

Thanks for all the help!

RM

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by mcdanrl

Hey Guys,

I took your information to the range a few times this weekend and MAN oh MAN I was striking my short irons unbelievable! One problem I was having was I could not straighten out my long irons or hybrids. I was pushing them left instead of having slight draw. Anyone know of any drills I could do to work on this?

Thanks for all the help!

RM

Make sure the handle is forward at address, don't want the handle pointing at or behind the zipper