Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by zeg

*IF* that app is a distance measuring app. If you are not actually *using* the distance measuring app, none of that language applies.

"no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules , whether or not they are actually used."

That means anything in breach of the rules, not just a distance app. By including any non conforming app or elements of the OS, you make the device itself non conforming and therefore in breach of the rules.

[mymizunosrock]

Why didnt they just make people disable their mobile network?? How is that any different to making sure people play by any other rule??

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

"no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

That means anything in breach of the rules, not just a distance app. By including any non conforming app or elements of the OS, you make the device itself non conforming and therefore in breach of the rules.

Now you removed that part of text from the entire context creating a different meaning. The entire text is:

"In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used , there must be
no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in
breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."

Read the bolded very carefully. It means that no other app is relevant if distance measuring application is not used. Naturally one cannot actually use any non-conforming app anytime but this was not the issue here.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Once again: any phone may be used for it's normal purposes, that is calling and sending/receiving SMS's. Use of illegal apps such as compass, weather app, etc. are and have been banned already in the past by Rule 14-3. More difficult question is may a phone that contains a GPS distance measuring app be used if it contains ANY illegal app. For this question I have not found a definitive answer.

Edit: The way I read Note to Rule 14-3 and Appendix I; Part B; Section 9 this 'ban' of smartphones is only limited to use of distance measuring applications when such phone contains non-conforming features. This means that use of any phone for calling etc. is perfectly allowed by the Rules regardless which apps it contains. A mere idea of not being able to call for a referee with a smartphone is bizarre and certainly is not what this new amendment of R14-3 is about.

But this destroys the very rationale behind the ruling.  Using a GPS is an allowable function.  Using s cell phone is an allowable function.  You can't do one allowable function (GPS) if you have a (disabled) weather app but you can do the other allowable function (cell phone) if you have all kinds of non-conforming stuff on your phone?  Where is the logic in that?  It certainly destroys iacas's argument about ease of cheating.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

No, it does not. It is non-conforming ONLY if there is a distance measuring app and this app is actually used. You are perfectly free to use that device for scoring, statistics, etc. This is very clearly said in the text you yourself quoted and even bolded the correct sentences to support what I just wrote.

Edit:

Sorry, you seem to write more or less the same thing there later, missed that earlier. I do disagree with your last sentence, though. Any non-conforming app in the phone does not make it illegal to be used for the purposes I already mentioned, as illogical it may sound. For this very reason I would like the ruling bodies to reftesh their stand, although I believe my wish is in vain...

Exactly, as illogical as it sounds.  This ruling is completely illogical.  Either using a phone with a nonconforming app is too susceptible to cheating or it isn't, and what the phone is used for really makes no difference.  Any use of a phone with nonconforming apps is just as susceptible to cheating as using it as a GPS.

Originally Posted by zeg

*IF* that app is a distance measuring app. If you are not actually *using* the distance measuring app, none of that language applies.

That is the ruling, but as outlined above it makes no sense.

[LuciusWooding]

No, if the OS has a non conforming app then the device cannot be used, even as a phone. The OS of several smartphones has weather information apps built in, so use of the device at all would be non conforming. Using a normal phone would be legal, provided no breaches of rules are made such as using it to gain advice. However, the issue is that some smartphones have these apps built in on them which cannot be deleted. This makes them nonconforming as rangefinders as well as any other use. There seems to be no specific ruling on phones themselves, since they aren't considered equipment in their own right, but the issue is the apps.

There is no distinction between having an app on the device and using it according to the USGA. Once that non conforming software is on the device, the device is non conforming unless the offending bits are removed. OS can't be removed. Even if you don't use the device as a GPS, the OS is still launched, providing you with weather data automatically. The phone models that do this are therefore unsuitable for use of any kind under the rules.

[Rulesman]

This is what the R&A; and USGA say

1.    Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:

The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.

When the local rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to “distance only” and the device does not have any other “non-conforming” features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply.

[Rulesman]

I have just had confirmation from my contact in the R&A; Rules Department that providing the DMD app on a multifunction device is not being used, the presence of non-conforming functions does not make the device illegal. It is the use of the DMD function that is critical.

Appendix IV Clause 5 says

In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules , whether or not they are actually used.

That makes it clear that when the DMD app is not being used the other features are irrelevant.

[LuciusWooding]

That's a good clarification, but I find it odd that it only applies in that situation. So, conversely, you could use a non conforming rangefinder that has the ability to make phone calls or receive radio built in, providing you didn't use it as a rangefinder? Basically, one device with illegal features is illegal, while one is allowed, based on what you call it rather than how it's used? Why should a phone be treated differently than a rangefinder, and if either are illegal then surely both in the same device are illegal?

It seems the ruling is clear, but I still find phone "extra" features inconsistent with the spirit of the rule about DMD "extra" features. Either allow them to swear not to use multifunction devices illegally and allow them to use them with functions disabled, or ban it altogether so that any device capable of cheating can't be used for any purpose.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

This is what the R&A; and USGA say

1.    Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:

The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.

When the local rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to “distance only” and the device does not have any other “non-conforming” features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply.

Love it.  All of which, makes ZERO sense as turtleback notes.  I can SMS/Text to my hearts content and they will trust that I'm not asking someone what the weather conditions are, what club I should use, how a particular hole plays, etc...not to mention that they trust me to do all this even though there are non-conforming apps on my phone.  But the minute I start using an app for distance measurements, all that goes out the window.  Now I can't be trusted to only use that app and nothing else that might help me.

I just don't see how someone can logically argue that any of that makes sense.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I have just had confirmation from my contact in the R&A; Rules Department that providing the DMD app on a multifunction device is not being used, the presence of non-conforming functions does not make the device illegal. It is the use of the DMD function that is critical.

Appendix IV Clause 5 says

In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used.

That makes it clear that when the DMD app is not being used the other features are irrelevant.

Which of course makes the ruling all the more silly.

[rustyredcab]

The current cell phone rules still allow for cheating by a cheater (the texting example is perfect). Phones don't cheat, cheaters do.

Erik chastised me for guessing that the rules committee members did not understand the technology. I'm sure he is correct that they are not a bunch of old guys who never use smart phones. But it sure seems like their decisions imply a lack of understanding of what the technology can and can not do. Years from now, these things will change. (Hey, I'm thrilled that I can ground my putter and not worry about the wind blowing my ball. That's progress.)

I not too old to remember when cell phones were banned from my kids' high school -- not allowed to have one on your person, in your locker, or anywhere else. There was no way for a kid to call and tell you that practice ran long or for parents to let kids know of changes in plans. Now they are not only accepted, they are expected and even part of the emergency notification plan. In the same way, I work in a homeless shelter that used to make everyone check in their cell phones because they were thought to only be used for drugs and other bad connections. Now, everyone who has one keeps it and we know that they are used for arranging rides to work or just listening to music to help drowned out the snoring. The thought that all phones should be banned because someone may have once used a phone to make a drug deal is the kind of logic that has us taking our shoes off at the airport.

All that said, as dumb as the rule is, it is a rule and those of us that play by the rules will abide if we wish to play by the rules.

[newtogolf]

I agree the Smartphone rule seems less useful given texting is permitted and one could certainly subscribe to a weather service or ask a friend to respond via text.

With regards to HS, they are still banned on Long Island.  Students are not allowed to bring them to school, but many students do and just leave them in their locker.  If they are caught with them in school during school hours they are confiscated and require the parent meeting with the principal to be returned.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

The current cell phone rules still allow for cheating by a cheater (the texting example is perfect). Phones don't cheat, cheaters do.

Erik chastised me for guessing that the rules committee members did not understand the technology. I'm sure he is correct that they are not a bunch of old guys who never use smart phones. But it sure seems like their decisions imply a lack of understanding of what the technology can and can not do. Years from now, these things will change. (Hey, I'm thrilled that I can ground my putter and not worry about the wind blowing my ball. That's progress.)

I not too old to remember when cell phones were banned from my kids' high school -- not allowed to have one on your person, in your locker, or anywhere else. There was no way for a kid to call and tell you that practice ran long or for parents to let kids know of changes in plans. Now they are not only accepted, they are expected and even part of the emergency notification plan. In the same way, I work in a homeless shelter that used to make everyone check in their cell phones because they were thought to only be used for drugs and other bad connections. Now, everyone who has one keeps it and we know that they are used for arranging rides to work or just listening to music to help drowned out the snoring. The thought that all phones should be banned because someone may have once used a phone to make a drug deal is the kind of logic that has us taking our shoes off at the airport.

All that said, as dumb as the rule is, it is a rule and those of us that play by the rules will abide if we wish to play by the rules.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Erik chastised me for guessing that the rules committee members did not understand the technology.

Be fair. I countered your assertion that they were clueless old fogeys with some knowledge about some guys I know in the organization.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree the Smartphone rule seems less useful given texting is permitted and one could certainly subscribe to a weather service or ask a friend to respond via text.

Under current rules, you can call your wife to tell her you'll be an hour late, but you cannot call your instructor to ask him why you keep chunking your wedges.

What happens if The Weather Channel is on in the halfway house and you happen to see the local conditions? What if you tune to TWC because the TV was set to Golf Channel?

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to HS, they are still banned on Long Island.  Students are not allowed to bring them to school, but many students do and just leave them in their locker.  If they are caught with them in school during school hours they are confiscated and require the parent meeting with the principal to be returned.

Ditto here. 8am to 3pm, no cell phones. They're in lockers, not even turned off but in a student's pocket.

Could the rule be written better? Probably. But guys, for the rule to be written any better, you're not gonna like it: all smart phones will be illegal . That's the only logical possibility.

You talk about "trust" and right now the USGA is "trusting" you to use your phone as a phone and that's it. It's typically obvious when someone is on a phone call (or even texting). It's less obvious when they're just staring at a screen (like when viewing GPS or looking at weather conditions). I think that's consistent with what I've said about some acts being less or more obvious than others. Texting and talking on the phone have roughly the same "obvious equivalency" as the guy sneaking off to change his driver weight port settings.

I think the rule, as written, is fairly clear. To clarify it any more, again, I think smart phones would simply be made illegal for all uses.

[newtogolf]

I understand and am okay with the USGA rule, but I can see the point others are making in that it's a bit ambiguous.  They trust us to not call or text a swing coach but don't trust us to not open up a compass or weather app.  It's really a non-issue if you're not a professional or participating in a tournament.

Originally Posted by iacas

Under current rules, you can call your wife to tell her you'll be an hour late, but you cannot call your instructor to ask him why you keep chunking your wedges.

What happens if The Weather Channel is on in the halfway house and you happen to see the local conditions? What if you tune to TWC because the TV was set to Golf Channel?

Ditto here. 8am to 3pm, no cell phones. They're in lockers, not even turned off but in a student's pocket.

Could the rule be written better? Probably. But guys, for the rule to be written any better, you're not gonna like it: all smart phones will be illegal. That's the only logical possibility.

You talk about "trust" and right now the USGA is "trusting" you to use your phone as a phone and that's it. It's typically obvious when someone is on a phone call (or even texting). It's less obvious when they're just staring at a screen (like when viewing GPS or looking at weather conditions). I think that's consistent with what I've said about some acts being less or more obvious than others. Texting and talking on the phone have roughly the same "obvious equivalency" as the guy sneaking off to change his driver weight port settings.

I think the rule, as written, is fairly clear. To clarify it any more, again, I think smart phones would simply be made illegal for all uses.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I understand and am okay with the USGA rule, but I can see the point others are making in that it's a bit ambiguous.  They trust us to not call or text a swing coach but don't trust us to not open up a compass or weather app.  It's really a non-issue if you're not a professional or participating in a tournament.

It is not that it is ambiguous, it is that it is illogical.  Whether you can have a weather app on your phone changes depending on whether you are doing one allowable thing, making a phone call, or another allowable thing, using it for a rangefinder.  And I disagree with the argument that one can readily tell if someone is texting or checking weather.

And it is not a non-issue unless you consider that it is a non-issue if serious golfers who take the rules seriously are being told, basically, to ignore this particular rule.  It is terrible for the game to have a ruling that has so little logic and acceptance that it is widely ignored by serious golfers.  I know that it doesn't matter where casual golfers who don't know the rules in the first place are concerned.

[jgreen85]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I understand and am okay with the USGA rule, but I can see the point others are making in that it's a bit ambiguous.  They trust us to not call or text a swing coach but don't trust us to not open up a compass or weather app.  It's really a non-issue if you're not a professional or participating in a tournament.

It's not ambiguous; it's stupid. The argument throughout this thread has been: "they need to be illegal because people can access other information (weather, etc.)." Someone can be on theirphone looking at the weather and even checking the distance, and he/she need only say, "I'm texting my wife." Every argument in favor of this dumb rule has just been debunked. Someone can type, type, and type as he/she looks up the weather and say "I'm texting," and iacas and no one else can say otherwise (which has been iacas's point, "I can't easily tell what you're doing on your phone.).

If you want this rule, as iacas said, you must ban smartphones completely. This won't happen. The USGA knows all 90+% of golfers under the age of 50 carry smartphones exclusively. So what do they do? They make this rule. Why? I can't understand the purpose of this rule if someone can still cheat if he/she wanted to.

What's the reason for this rule? It doesn't do what it claims to: prevent people from secretly checking the weather and other course conditions. How can you even tell someone is not talking to his/her coach? Inexplicable rule.

[Ignorant]

Lots of people in this thread are upset because a mobile phone gives them (and others) a possibility to cheat. I find this not only puzzling but also very worrying. Golf is meant to be played by the Rules and most of the time nobody's watching you. In essence this means that everyone should have the integrity to do only those things that are allowed by the Rules. Mobile phones have not changed anything. Throughout the times people may have cheated and there have always been an ample of opportunities to do so. As someone pointed out a cheater cheats. This is very true and a cheater always finds a way.

As far as the new text in Appendix IV is concerned I am astonished how many manage to misread it. In order to understand it more properly why don't you take another approach? What would the wording be if use of all smartphones with any non-conforming app would be a breach of Rule 14-3? I can assure you nobody would have gone through all that trouble to write long sentences about this and that but just have simply written: All smartphones with any non-conforming apps are not allowed to be used, penalty is disqualification.

I can understand the confusion and I agree that this situation is silly and maybe even illogical but bear in mind that it is up to the player himself to maintain his integrity, the Rules will not do that. Which brings me back to the point I have made already several times: there should be no limitations whatsoever what a phone contains but the responsibility for not breaking a Rule should be on the player. Current ruling is a slap on the face to all companies selling GPS apps for golfers and favours those who manufacture conforming rangefinders. THIS is what I call heavily illogical.

[camper6]

Everyone is just going to ignore the rule.

Who is going to call them on it?