Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by camper6

Everyone is just going to ignore the rule.

Who is going to call them on it?

Themselves.

You did not ask this seriously, right?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by iacas

You talk about "trust" and right now the USGA is "trusting" you to use your phone as a phone and that's it. It's typically obvious when someone is on a phone call (or even texting). It's less obvious when they're just staring at a screen (like when viewing GPS or looking at weather conditions). I think that's consistent with what I've said about some acts being less or more obvious than others. Texting and talking on the phone have roughly the same "obvious equivalency" as the guy sneaking off to change his driver weight port settings.

I think the rule, as written, is fairly clear. To clarify it any more, again, I think smart phones would simply be made illegal for all uses.

My interpretation of the rule is that as long as you aren't using your smart phone as a distance measuring device (DMD), you may use it in any way you wish so long as it doesn't violate any of the other rules of golf. So using the browser to check the football scores is fine, texting a mate is fine, playing a game is fine etc. And you can have as many weather and compass apps as you like and it's fine as long as you're not using the phone as a DMD (and that you do not use them).

It's only when you use it as a DMD that this rule applies and then you can't have weather apps, or a compass regardless of whether or not you use them.

So I can't see how the rule can be about someone being able to observe if I'm cheating or not, I can access a weather app covertly while checking the football scores just as easily as I could while using the phone as a DMD.

I think the R&A; have made a hash of the rule, and there isn't really any logic to it, but we're stuck with it for the next 4 years and so I've bought myself a dedicated GPS for use in competition, although I may continue to use my smart phone as a DMD during social rounds.

[Rulesman]

Weather apps are not necessarily illegal.

It depends on what it is telling you. If it tells you specific information about the place where you are standing then there is a problem eg current temperature, current wind direction.and strength

If it is just a general situation map say or a forecast there is no problem.

Except as provided in the Rules , during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment (see Appendix IV for detailed specifications and interpretations), or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play;

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Weather apps are not necessarily illegal.

It depends on what it is telling you. If it tells you specific information about the place where you are standing then there is a problem eg current temperature, current wind direction.and strength

If it is just a general situation map say or a forecast there is no problem.

You bring up an interesting point. I agree that a general map or forecast of the type available via a weather app or the internet is not going to help in any way since it doesn't tell you the current conditions at your location. However, many in this thread do not agree with that. The question is, what did the rules makers have in mind when they worded the rule? Here is the rule again, from Appendix IV:

"Features that would render use of the device contrary to the Local Rule include...the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as temperature, humidity, etc.)"

The wording of the rule prohibits features that "gauge or measure conditions that might affect play". Certainly, knowing environmental variables like the ones listed in the rule would affect play if you knew what they were at your specific location , and any device that measured that would be illegal. But I don't think we can be certain that the rules makers intended that to include a "weather app" of the type we've all been assuming they are talking about.  (I.e., the standard app that most phones come with that provides current conditions from a weather station somewhere else - usually the city's main airport.)  As we see in this thread, reasonable minds can disagree on what "might affect play". It seems to me that the rule leaves the definition of what information "might affect play" open for interpretation, whether intentionally or not.

In summary, given the wording of the rule I don't think we can know for sure whether the USGA intended to ban the generic weather apps that come with the smart phones, or only specialized apps that measure environmental variables at the point of the device.

[iacas]

sacm, I think Rulesman is wrong with "specific information about the place where you are standing," and the rules officials I know concur. "It might affect his play" is pretty general and, thus, covers a wide area. Knowing the weather conditions in Idaho when you're in Maine won't matter, but knowing the "local" weather conditions would be a violation. Generic weather apps are illegal. It's not a stretch to think that knowing the wind is from the west at 20 MPH could certainly "affect" someone's play if they think the wind is from the east.

[k14]

Originally Posted by Mordan

My interpretation of the rule is that as long as you aren't using your smart phone as a distance measuring device (DMD), you may use it in any way you wish so long as it doesn't violate any of the other rules of golf. So using the browser to check the football scores is fine, texting a mate is fine, playing a game is fine etc. And you can have as many weather and compass apps as you like and it's fine as long as you're not using the phone as a DMD (and that you do not use them).

It's only when you use it as a DMD that this rule applies and then you can't have weather apps, or a compass regardless of whether or not you use them.

So I can't see how the rule can be about someone being able to observe if I'm cheating or not, I can access a weather app covertly while checking the football scores just as easily as I could while using the phone as a DMD.

I think the R&A; have made a hash of the rule, and there isn't really any logic to it, but we're stuck with it for the next 4 years and so I've bought myself a dedicated GPS for use in competition, although I may continue to use my smart phone as a DMD during social rounds.

^^^ This is spot on correct. Smartphones have actually been illegal since 2009 due to this ruling by the USGA.

I was using my Iphone as a GPS till I was made aware of the ruling last year. I bought a rangefinder and haven't used the Iphone app since. It seems the R&A; are pretty ignorant when it comes to modern technology and I doubt this will be the end we hear of this issue. I can see some guys getting DQ'd from events when they are none the wiser on the use of the smartphones.

[camper6]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Themselves.

You did not ask this seriously, right?

Yes seriously.  You're not even supposed to take the device on the course if the app is on the phone and I don't know if there is a way you can kill the app. So if you inadvertently leave the device in your bag and don't even use it are you going to call yourself on it?  Who really needs the app anyway?

[Sandwedge74]

I may catch a lot of heat for this but here goes anyways....

part of the issue for myself besides not having the money for a dedicated GPS device is that a lot of course have very poor yardage markings. So, the phone device has been helpful for me. for instance, it does severely slow play when you are 87 yards from the pin (you think) and the nearest marker is the 150 yard marker.  Does anybody know if the R&A; stipulate courses have clear yardage markings? making it less penal i\f you are banned from a smart phone GPS app??

also, again, may catch a beating for this - during PGA practice rounds there are GPS's and rangefinders and caddies taking notes..why is it so hard in this game to bring the fairness totally square when it comes to us amateurs playing a skins game or whatever??

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by camper6

You're not even supposed to take the device on the course if the app is on the phone

That is not correct. I'm afraid you must have missed the part of the R&A;/USGA statement which says

1.    Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:

The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by iacas

sacm, I think Rulesman is wrong with "specific information about the place where you are standing," and the rules officials I know concur. "It might affect his play" is pretty general and, thus, covers a wide area. Knowing the weather conditions in Idaho when you're in Maine won't matter, but knowing the "local" weather conditions would be a violation. Generic weather apps are illegal. It's not a stretch to think that knowing the wind is from the west at 20 MPH could certainly "affect" someone's play if they think the wind is from the east.

A weather app does not measure anything which will help the player calculate the effective distance.

The joint statement includes the following:

A very important proviso of this permission is that the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature.

The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc),

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Weather apps are not necessarily illegal.

It depends on what it is telling you. If it tells you specific information about the place where you are standing then there is a problem eg current temperature, current wind direction.and strength

If it is just a general situation map say or a forecast there is no problem.

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment (see Appendix IVfor detailed specifications and interpretations), or use any equipment in an unusual manner:

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play;

A player is entitled to use any information that existed prior to his round. Information about weather in constatly updated in the web so basically one gets new data at some point. It is far easier to say that one is not allowed to use any weather app during a competition than obligate all users to make sure that the information they get is 'old' enough.

But what the heck, there is no problem whatsoever if you check the weather BEFORE you start your round. Then you bury your device in the water proof pocket of your bag and leave it there. No problem.

[Rulesman]

I don't have a smartphone so don't know the full capabilities of a 'weather app' but providing an app has no measuring capabilities I don't see that it would be 'illegal'.

I am awaiting a call from a contact at the R&A.;

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

A weather app does not measure anything which will help the player calculate the effective distance.

The joint statement includes the following:

A very important proviso of this permission is that the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature.

The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc),

I think the key word here is "Measure". Can the phone measure distance?? Yes it can. Can the phone, with the right app, measure slope?? Yes it can. Can the phone with a compass installed tell you where north is?? Yes is can. Can the phone measure wind speed, temperature, humidity?? NO it cant!!! I think with the use of the word "measure", from what I understand, I cant see why a phone would be considered non conforming provided it does not have a compass or level measuring capabilities if you have GPS apps installed...

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by camper6

Everyone is just going to ignore the rule.

Who is going to call them on it?

It doesn't matter.  Having a ruling that causes serious golfers to ignore a rule is terrible for golf.

Originally Posted by Mordan

My interpretation of the rule is that as long as you aren't using your smart phone as a distance measuring device (DMD), you may use it in any way you wish so long as it doesn't violate any of the other rules of golf. So using the browser to check the football scores is fine, texting a mate is fine, playing a game is fine etc. And you can have as many weather and compass apps as you like and it's fine as long as you're not using the phone as a DMD (and that you do not use them).

It's only when you use it as a DMD that this rule applies and then you can't have weather apps, or a compass regardless of whether or not you use them.

So I can't see how the rule can be about someone being able to observe if I'm cheating or not, I can access a weather app covertly while checking the football scores just as easily as I could while using the phone as a DMD.

I think the R&A; have made a hash of the rule, and there isn't really any logic to it, but we're stuck with it for the next 4 years and so I've bought myself a dedicated GPS for use in competition, although I may continue to use my smart phone as a DMD during social rounds.

But isn't it terrible for the game that such a silly ruling is making you a cheater during your social rounds?

Originally Posted by Rulesman

A weather app does not measure anything which will help the player calculate the effective distance.

The joint statement includes the following:

A very important proviso of this permission is that the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature.

The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc),

If you are correct in your interpretation that the key is the difference between measuring , as opposed to accessing information , then I would probably withdraw my objection to the ruling.  I am  pretty sure that while my smartphone can access information about wind speed and direction it isn't measuring those things.  I should add that I wouldn't use it to access the information anyway, but it would be nice to not be cheating if I use the rangefinder app.

I will be very interested to hear what the governing body's response is to your query.

[LuciusWooding]

I doubt it will be considered, since they allow you to access information generated prior to a round such as yardage books, notes, etc. either written or digital. However, a weather app gives up to date information since the station measures for you. You could look at the weather report generated prior to your round, but readings generated during the round are still off limits.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by turtleback

If you are correct in your interpretation that the key is the difference between measuring, as opposed to accessing information, then I would probably withdraw my objection to the ruling.  I am  pretty sure that while my smartphone can access information about wind speed and direction it isn't measuring those things.  I should add that I wouldn't use it to access the information anyway, but it would be nice to not be cheating if I use the rangefinder app.

There might be some doubt over weather apps, but if your phone has a compass then that definitely violates the rule (if you use your phone as a DMD). And it wouldn't necessarily just need to be a compass app either, a maps function that can rotate based on the direction you're facing would be enough I think.

[Rulesman]

I have just received a phone call from the R&A; confirming that a non conforming function has to be able to physically measure or gauge the information itself. Viewing or receiving weather related information from the web (say) is OK.

The only qualification is that a device having the facility to communicate to a non-conforming on-course device, which can measure or gauge (say an anemometer), would render it illegal if also used as a DMD.

By coincidence I have just received the 2012 hard card from the English Golf Union and their Local Rules now say

"multi-function devices such as mobile phones with a distance- measuring application may not be used " (as a DMD)

I haven't got any others yet but I suspect we will see this elsewhere.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I have just received a phone call from the R&A; confirming that a non conforming function has to be able to physically measure or gauge the information itself. Viewing or receiving weather related information from the web (say) is OK.

The only qualification is that a device having the facility to communicate to a non-conforming on-course device, which can measure or gauge (say an anemometer), would render it illegal if also used as a DMD.

I suspect you'll want to keep following up on that, because seven USGA folks I've talked to state the opposite. A weather app is illegal.

The wind (or temperature, etc.) IS measured, the app simply reports the values. In other words, they report the "measurement." You're requesting the measurement and it's reported to you. Your phone doesn't need an actual anemometer for it to be illegal, it simply has to report the measured value.