Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[newtogolf]

Garmin, SkyCaddie, and others are likely in ventures with app developers on Smart Phones.  If they stopped selling hardware devices their revenue would be impacted, but their profits and cashflow would likely improve.  They have to buy parts for these devices, pay for assembly, R&D; (hardware), and worry about technology refreshment and inventories.  Software is a much cleaner business model.  I highly doubt these companies are spending money to lobby the USGA against the use of Smartphones.

Originally Posted by jgreen85

2nd point, for those who think skycaddie et al don't have a hand in this, I have a bridge in Phoenix to sell you. These guys are huge benefactors for the business of golf and they have their lobbiest like every other industry.

Finally, those saying a standalone is too much? come on, you play GOLF. You knew the deal when you started.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Garmin, SkyCaddie, and others are likely in ventures with app developers on Smart Phones.  If they stopped selling hardware devices their revenue would be impacted, but their profits and cashflow would likely improve.  They have to buy parts for these devices, pay for assembly, R&D; (hardware), and worry about technology refreshment and inventories.  Software is a much cleaner business model.  I highly doubt these companies are spending money to lobby the USGA against the use of Smartphones.

Bingo.  My Golf Logix APP on my BlackBerry is enginerred by Garmin.

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I said skycaddie et al. The et al includes the other golf gps and laser companies as well as the golf shops that collect a 20% markup on the products.

You don't have to be a wiseass. The point I was making is that you're in danger of coming off like a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I've never seen proof that the USGA can be "lobbied" like you've implied or outright stated.

And as others said, Garmin and SkyGolf "et al" have smart phone products too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

Yes, policing is harder with a phone than with other mostly self-enforced rules, but most of the rules of golf are mostly self-enforced at all levels.  This seems an illogical and blinkered place to draw a line in the sand.

I think it's anything but "illogical." You're not allowed to check the wind speed or direction. Or temperature. Or barometric pressure. So given that, allowing people to carry and USE a device which can provide that information is the illogical choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

I made the price argument earlier, and I still stand by it, as I'm a grad student and literally every single dollar I can spare goes to golf, and there's nowhere I'm pulling $99-$199 from to get a dedicated device.

So don't buy one. Again, the Rules do not require that you have one, just as they don't require that you have a $600 driver or $1200 set of wedges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

My point is, while yes, we all know golf is an expensive habit, that's not an excuse to make a rule that those who can afford yet another $100-$200 can gain an advantage just because the rules committee chose this as the one rule where they don't trust golfers to enforce the rules on themselves.

Again, that's always been the case. If you can spend more, you can get (ostensibly) better instructors. Better equipment. Play better courses.

And a GPS or laser doesn't even give you "better" information - it just gives you information FASTER and MORE EASILY than you could get if you had to pace it off or map the course yourself with a piece of paper and a pencil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

Plus, as Ignorant says, there's the fact that if you assume honor among golfers, then this rule does nothing except force golfers to waste time tracking scoring, stats, and GPS on different devices/papers and then dealing with all that data separately later.

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy it. It's not honorable to break a rule just because you disagree with the rule.

Look, at the end of the day, the Rules of Golf are pretty clear. If you want to violate them, then by definition you're not honorable, so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the rules should trust a dishonorable person to be honorable.

Play golf or don't. I don't really care - what you do won't affect me. But when I play, I like to know that I'm playing under the Rules of Golf, whether I like or agree with them or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

The home page does contain weather information, but only the current temperature and if its cloudy or clear (something I can obviously figure out myself by looking up at the sky, no advantage to me there). I do have a compass I installed. Have I ever needed it for golf? No. Why would I. Im not going to get lost playing golf. Do I have access to detailed weather information?? Sure. But hey, Im outside, I know what the weather is doing. Unless your golf club has its own weather station and is broadcasting the information, weather apps are useless anyway which is why most people would not even bother getting that information from the web or an app.

Hey, I'm standing on the green, I can tell if it's fast or slow. Why can't I use my stimpmeter to tell me exactly how fast or slow it is? Oh, and I know the green is tilted, maybe a bit more than the last one, so why not use my digital level to tell me exactly how tilted it is? Oh, and the greens feel pretty firm. Maybe before I hit this pitch shot I should get to use my firmness testing device to tell me how much I can expect my ball to bounce once it lands on the green.

Point made yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

Why would they even bother bringing this smart phone ruling up?? We already know that compasses and weather information apps are banned for use. Nothing has changed there. They cant say that phones will be banned because you "may" be using it for other data that is banned. Ban them totally, or leave the rule alone and let the golfers use the honor system that has been in place since day dot. If they are going to worry about people possibly using their phones for illegal reasons, then they better start checking how many clubs are in every players bag before comp rounds. There is a rule that is never spoken about, but is based purely on trust. Let the smart phone rule do the same.

They have banned them totally. You can't use a cell phone capable of doing those things which are not allowed under the Rules. Just as you can't use a laser with slope built in, even if the function is disabled or turned off.

You can carry one in your bag and never get it out. The USGA isn't going to have someone die of a heart attack because there was no cell phone. You can take your phone out and call 911 because in emergencies the Rules of Golf really don't matter much.

You folks act like "golf is a game of honor" is a rule of golf. It's probably the most "honorable" sport out there but don't be naive. How many PGA Tour players were penalized because they didn't behave honorably and call penalties on themselves? How many more penalties go uncalled because the player wasn't on TV that precise moment? Honor doesn't exist in the rules - you're "supposed" to call penalties on yourself, but clearly if you don't know the rules you can't do that.

The Rules of Golf say this in the first section, under the "Spirit of the Game":

Quote:

Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Now, you can conflate honor and integrity. That's fine.

But the rules specifically state that you must obey the rules, and that's integrity. Well guess what? The Rules have stated for four years or so that any device used to measure distance can not have other functions, even if disabled or turned off, which make the device illegal .

So there you have it. By definition, I doubt any of us have been "honorable." I use my phone to keep track of my stats when I'm playing a casual round (then again, I don't even post scores for handicap anymore). I turn it off and stick it deep in a pocket when I'm playing a section event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129

I know the argument is that a range finder gives the same info as the yardage book, but that really isn't true for most people out there playing (ignore tour level caddies) as the margin of error is a lot less.

Distance is considered common knowledge, yes, per the rules. Has been since I started playing the game and well before that, too. Again, anyone is free to measure the course beforehand. Get a yardstick out there if you want. Hire a surveying team. Common knowledge, per the rules, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So, in essence this information is very valuable as the wind direction above tree tops is very constant around here (no mountains or very high hills nearby). Thus I have consulted this particular web page a multitude of times both before a round and during (not in competitions, naturally) and noted any change in the wind direction as well as speed. At least for me this has been very helpful.

Yes, indeed. Wind speed and direction is very useful, particularly to skilled golfers.

[jgreen85]

Wrong. Garmin, SkyCaddie (doesn't even have a smart phone app, that I'm aware of) because the apps don't allow you to lock in a customer like a dedicated device does. These companies would much, much rather sell you the hardware because you can't simply switch when another app comes along.

Secondly, what are the costs of smart phone gps apps? $30 is the most I've seen and that's it! SkyCaddie charges at least that amount annually. I don't own a skycaddie, but does it work if you don't pay that fee?

As for the BOM costs on these devices, these companies are making huge margins. These sell for the same amount as a smart phone (pre-subsidy), and have no where near the processing power or additional components (antennas, etc.) that a smart phone. No to mention the screens are rarely as good (retina, oled, etc) as on a smart phone. No sir, they love, Love, LOVE selling the device much more than they would an app.

R&D;? How much have these devices changed? Seriously? They have a gps chip and a screen (SkyCaddie is bragging that their new device has WIFI! I've had a phone w/ wifi since 2004). Tech refreshment? Again, I get to sell you another device and lock you in further. Software cleaner business model? Yea, it is great if people will pay you for it. I have golflogix on my phone too. Guess how much I paid...zero. I get distances to the center of the green for nada. Are you sure they'd rather me use their free app than pay $350 or w/e for the hardware? (do not mention ads; it is a well known marketing fact that mobile ads have been a flop thus far).

If software is so great, why doesn't SkyCaddie have an app? I guess they're just too stupid to figure this out.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Garmin, SkyCaddie, and others are likely in ventures with app developers on Smart Phones.  If they stopped selling hardware devices their revenue would be impacted, but their profits and cashflow would likely improve.  They have to buy parts for these devices, pay for assembly, R&D; (hardware), and worry about technology refreshment and inventories.  Software is a much cleaner business model.  I highly doubt these companies are spending money to lobby the USGA against the use of Smartphones.

As for me being a conspiracy theorist, you have way too much faith in these regular people who run the USGA. Seriously, wake up. Golf is a business believe it or not. There are people who make a ton of money based on the rules. Just look at the conforming wedge rule. From what I read, regulating the golf ball would be a better way to achieve the USGA's goal (punishing players who hit it in the rough), but manufacturers requested that the golf ball not be touched, so they changed the wedge rules. All while allowing one or two more years to sell non-conforming wedges (which the mfgs advertised as the last chance to buy these soon to be illegal clubs) and then once that was up it was "it's time to get conforming wedges b/c your old ones are illegal." This isn't a draconian decision at all. No golfer is going to be hurt by this, but to say that those who will benefit from this rule (I'm looking to buy a laser rangefinder now b/c of this) had no hand in it is just naive. This rule was probably 70/30 in favor of leaving it alone, but somebody said, "Hey, smartphones are hurting our business, so limiting them would help the industry. The stores will like it, and the tv channels will like it (more ads from skycaddie). And serious golfers aren't poor, this won't hurt them and they're the only ones who will care/know about this rule. The casual golfers won't mind. It's a win win for golf." If my a usga guy, I change my position based on that.

So iacas, about that bridge. It's really nice. I'll let you have it for cheap.

[LuciusWooding]

How would regulating the golf ball help out of the rough? The problem was that the old grooves allowed too much spin out of the rough, so that it was no longer penalizing to hit wild tee shots. The whole thing was a mess, I'll grant you, but how do you change the ball to make rough more penalizing?

You can't make it less spinny, or it'd be impossible to play on firm greens, and also the players would hit it even longer and straighter. The only way to change the ball to penalize the rough would be to make it smaller! That would result in more lost balls, slower rounds, and more distance!

Also, it would make the wind less penalizing, so they'd have to add fins or something...

The USGA are a bunch of old fogeys who don't know what to do with the game, but at least I can say they're trying in good faith to keep the game alive.

And by the way, the majority of players affected by the groove rule replace their wedges all the time, play a lot of rounds, and spend tons of money on golf already. I just bought 2 wedges for 20$ each, both are conforming. I also play without a rangefinder and use yardage markers and my eyes to determine distance. The USGA is clearly laughing at all the money they got out of me...

When the USGA abolishes yardage markers and prevents yardages being listed on scorecards, then maybe it's a conspiracy. It takes them at least 5 years to react to anything, and apps are pretty new, especially to golfers.

[jgreen85]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

How would regulating the golf ball help out of the rough? The problem was that the old grooves allowed too much spin out of the rough, so that it was no longer penalizing to hit wild tee shots. The whole thing was a mess, I'll grant you, but how do you change the ball to make rough more penalizing?

I'm not sure exactly. I think the idea is that pros can get hard balls and soft balls in one. So off the driver it flies like an old rock flight, but off of a wedge it lands softly and can be rolled back. Pros would just hit driver, not care so much whether they hit the fairway or not, and then hit the wedge out of the rough to land it to a tight pin. The decision made was to limit the grooves, though many feel limiting the ball would've been an easier way to solve the problem (ie you can have a hard ball or a soft one, not both). I'm not positive this is the case. I just read a thread on here where iacas strongly disagreed that the ball has any impact at all, so I'm sure he'll disagree with that. It doesn't matter though, what that situation provides is precedent for mfgs being involved in the decision making process for new rules. Another example is that drivers originallly were not allowed to have a spring like effect, but modern drivers do, so instead of making mfgs stop producing those, they just limited the amount of spring they could have.

There's several precedents where mfgs are involved in rule making, and this is another. It's not a conspiracy that's how rules are made. Mfgs/retailers have people who work with the USGA on a regular basis and provide their opinions on issues. To say mfgs/retailers opinions are not biased is, again, naive.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy it. It's not honorable to break a rule just because you disagree with the rule.

Look, at the end of the day, the Rules of Golf are pretty clear. If you want to violate them, then by definition you're not honorable, so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the rules should trust a dishonorable person to be honorable.

Play golf or don't. I don't really care - what you do won't affect me. But when I play, I like to know that I'm playing under the Rules of Golf, whether I like or agree with them or not.

I'm surprised how much you're sticking to your guns here.  And what's with the tried and true and slightly condescending, "feel free to break the rules of golf, I'm going to play the real game whether or not I like all the rules"?  I thought we were discussing whether disallowing smart phone use on the course was a good rule to make, not whether one should follow that rule given that it's been made.  I'm just arguing that on the question of whether it was a good rule to make I think it wasn't, for the reasons I've stated above.

Your main counterargument (on whether it's a good rule, not whether to follow it given it's been made a rule), is that while yes, there are many rules of golf that are self-enforced and so rely on the integrity of the players, it's much easier for others to catch players failing to self-enforce most other rules, so it's reasonable to completely disallow smart phone use, rather than rely on self-enforcement of the limitation of use only to GPS and score/stat keeping (ie, no weather, wind, or slope app usage).  So basically it's a sort of gradation of trust required, and the rules committee has decided that allowing smart phone use while disallowing some applications goes too far in requiring too much trust as compared to other self-enforced rules.  I think the cost is too high (in dollars and convenience), given that not making the rule only requires an increase in the level of integrity assumed among players, and this would not be the first and only rule of golf that requires integrity and self-enforcement.

To me, this rule would be SO much more logically consistent if all electronic devices were banned.  There seems to be a much more principled argument in favor of requiring players to figure out distance based only on a yardage book and/or yardage stones/stakes/stripes.  Then at least you can invoke tradition and a desire to maintain the need for another element of skill or experience to play well.  Just banning non-dedicated devices does neither of those things and just declares golfers can't be trusted to the level required in this one particular case.  Why not allow them while banning certain uses but make explicitly clear that any competition committee can rule on a per competition basis that devices with certain capabilities can not be used?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by mdl

To me, this rule would be SO much more logically consistent if all electronic devices were banned.  There seems to be a much more principled argument in favor of requiring players to figure out distance based only on a yardage book and/or yardage stones/stakes/stripes.  Then at least you can invoke tradition and a desire to maintain the need for another element of skill or experience to play well.  Just banning non-dedicated devices does neither of those things and just declares golfers can't be trusted to the level required in this one particular case.  Why not allow them while banning certain uses but make explicitly clear that any competition committee can rule on a per competition basis that devices with certain capabilities can not be used?

Any way you slice it, there's a grey area.

Many people seem to have weather apps on their smart phone home page. If they accidentally exit their GPS app and see the reading, is there a penalty? What if they exit it but don't remember reading it? You know, sometimes you remember things subconsciously, so even if you don't think you saw the info, you may have absorbed it. Ok, so you gained the information, but you didn't *really* benefit from it, so no penalty, right? Wait, what are you saying, you're penalizing me because I have clumsy fingers? That's outrageous!

IMO, far better just to say you cannot use a device that can do something against the rules.

I would support a rule allowing devices that have a verifiable means of disabling that functionality (e.g., the range finder that has a bright yellow key you can pull out to disable the slope reading, IIRC). However, that's secondary---it's a fine start to just say no, then see what the impact is.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by iacas

Look, at the end of the day, the Rules of Golf are pretty clear. If you want to violate them, then by definition you're not honorable, so you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the rules should trust a dishonorable person to be honorable.

I'd say, the wording of the rules of Golf is mostly clear, if you want to violate them, then by definition you're not playing Golf. However, a great deal of bending of the rules takes place at all levels, and it is difficult to address every situation.

[boogielicious]

There is a famous paraphrase of a Mark Twain quote, "If you don't like New England Weather, wait a minute, it will change."

I am a weather junkie from my days of growing up near the ocean.  I watch the radar and check it all the time.  Here in New England the wind is very variable.  20K is a long way around here and the wind could be coming from a completely different direction and speed depending on where the course is in relation to the weather station.  This is why I don't think the app on a Smartphone is very useful here.  Knowing the Beaufort scale and watching the sky and trees is a much better way of judging the weather than a station reporting weather 15 miles away.

We are becoming a Smartphone world.  I was just in Singapore and China and everyone seemed to have a smart phone.  This is why I think there is a bit of outrage about this rule.  We've become very dependent on these tools in our everyday lives.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by zeg

Any way you slice it, there's a grey area.

Many people seem to have weather apps on their smart phone home page. If they accidentally exit their GPS app and see the reading, is there a penalty? What if they exit it but don't remember reading it? You know, sometimes you remember things subconsciously, so even if you don't think you saw the info, you may have absorbed it. Ok, so you gained the information, but you didn't *really* benefit from it, so no penalty, right? Wait, what are you saying, you're penalizing me because I have clumsy fingers? That's outrageous!

All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like a huge leap of the amount of greyness you're allowing between "were you actually addressing the ball when it moved?" and "can you set up your smart phone with integrity so as not to gain illegal information while using it for GPS and scoring and stat tracking?".  I remember this year I saw Charles Howell (I think it was him) call a possible penalty on himself for moving the ball as it lay in the fairway.  He requested a ruling and he described what happened to the rules official and the official declared that he had not technically addressed the ball so there was no penalty.  That amount of grey area and the amount of integrity required of the player to adhere to the rules seems not on a totally different level than the amount of grey area and integrity required to adhere to the rule of not using a smart phone to gather illegal information.  It's not very hard to set up your phone during a round to eliminate all possibility of accidentally viewing illegal info.

Obviously it's harder for other players to enforce my not sneaking a glance at the wind app than it is for them to notice if I'm taking a foot wedge or testing the sand, but I'm just arguing that it doesn't require an assumption of a whole order of magnitude more integrity to trust that I won't look at that wind app than does, for example, the Howell situation I noted above.

The required levels of integrity are especially close for mid or higher handicap players (like most of us) for club tourneys or official handicap rounds where the only people who could offer outside enforcement are playing partners.  If I wanted to cheat I know there are at least a couple situations each round where I could get away with a little foot wedge or improving my lie or whatever and no one would ever see it.  Say I pushed a drive into the woods and no one else is anywhere near and is hitting before me so they're paying attention to their own lie and planning and making their own shot while I sit over my ball.  Because I want to play by the rules, I don't cheat in those situations.  But all of my friends or competitors just have to trust that I have the integrity to play by the rules in such situations. Given the general allowance of lasers and GPS devices and the ubiquity of smart phones and the lower cost and vastly increased convenience of using the phone for GPS and score and stat tracking, it just seems inconsistent with the general level of integrity required to play by the rules to ban the phone.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

Wrong. Garmin, SkyCaddie (doesn't even have a smart phone app, that I'm aware of) because the apps don't allow you to lock in a customer like a dedicated device does. These companies would much, much rather sell you the hardware because you can't simply switch when another app comes along.

You don't know that. It may be an educated guess but you don't know it, regardless of how convincing you try to sound. You do seem to greatly underestimate how much hardware costs. Not only manufacturing and testing but shipping, stocking, packaging, etc. But that's okay. Just keep making things up with a few facts thrown in. I don't really care. :) I've got better things to do than dream up conspiracy theories about businesses lobbying the USGA and R&A...; or talk about it as much as you'd like to.

Oh, and you're way off base on the golf ball stuff. Read the science. The USGA published some awfully good science on it. I don't care what "many feel would have" been the better solution: the science is there for you to read. Science trumps opinion.

You can keep your bridge.

Originally Posted by jgreen85

Another example is that drivers originallly were not allowed to have a spring like effect, but modern drivers do, so instead of making mfgs stop producing those, they just limited the amount of spring they could have.

Wooden drivers have a spring-like effect too. It's not 0.83, but it's not 0 either.

Originally Posted by mdl

I'm surprised how much you're sticking to your guns here.  And what's with the tried and true and slightly condescending, "feel free to break the rules of golf, I'm going to play the real game whether or not I like all the rules"?  I thought we were discussing whether disallowing smart phone use on the course was a good rule to make, not whether one should follow that rule given that it's been made.  I'm just arguing that on the question of whether it was a good rule to make I think it wasn't, for the reasons I've stated above.

That may be what you're discussing. I'm not. I think it's a good rule, because I know that knowing wind speed and direction can provide assistance to a golfer. I've given an example of this. I routinely check the weather before I head out to play.

Originally Posted by mdl

So basically it's a sort of gradation of trust required, and the rules committee has decided that allowing smart phone use while disallowing some applications goes too far in requiring too much trust as compared to other self-enforced rules.

There are no truly "self-enforced" rules because we do everything in the open. You might trust someone wandering off in the weeds or trees, but you don't have to. He is supposed to play by the rules of golf, and the game has a much richer history of players doing just that than any other sport I know of, but that isn't guaranteed, particularly when so many people don't even know the rules.

I see no gradation of trust. The golfer is ASKED to be honorable in the "spirit" section of the Rules but you aren't banned from golf or something if you're a dishonorable guy or anything. You're penalized, and you're penalized the same whether you call it on yourself or someone else has to call it on you.

It's completely unreasonable to "rely on self-enforcement" because that really doesn't happen anywhere else in the game. At every opportunity it's reasonable to

Plus, how would you write that rule? How do you define the rule to say "GPS and laser devices which have extra capabilities can't be used, even if they're disabled, but smart phones can, provided the schmuck using it is an honorable guy and promises on his grandmother's grave not to even accidentally launch the weather app." Plus then you go down the road of trying to define what is and isn't acceptable.

The best rules are black and white, and paraphrased, this rule is simply this: " Devices which have extra capabilities to measure course conditions except yardage CAN NOT BE USED even if the function is disabled or not used." Under this very simple, very plain rule, "devices" covers everything.

Originally Posted by mdl

I think the cost is too high (in dollars and convenience), given that not making the rule only requires an increase in the level of integrity assumed among players, and this would not be the first and only rule of golf that requires integrity and self-enforcement.

Really? Find another rule that an opponent couldn't reasonably observe you breaking. Anything involving your play on the course is out. Equipment is out because I can observe you applying chap-stick to the face of your driver or notice that you're playing a "Bandit" long distance ball. If you change your driver setup I can see you monkeying with the wrench. I'm allowed to follow you into the woods. Count your clubs. Point out that you moved the divot while the ball was in motion and likely to travel through the same spot, Camilo. Etc.

The rules don't require integrity. They ask it, but then provide penalties for those caught violating the rules. Just like real life.

Originally Posted by mdl

To me, this rule would be SO much more logically consistent if all electronic devices were banned.

They are if they contain functionality to measure more than distance. Again, a black and white, simple rule.

Originally Posted by zeg

IMO, far better just to say you cannot use a device that can do something against the rules.

Yep. Simple, black and white. The smart phone rule isn't new. It dates back to the first time the USGA allowed GPS/lasers. It's just been made clear that smart phones with weather apps, etc. are in violation of the rule.

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Knowing the Beaufort scale and watching the sky and trees is a much better way of judging the weather than a station reporting weather 15 miles away.

So the Rules of Golf should allow the use of weather apps so long as the reporting weather station is... 15 miles away? 10? 13.1? 3? Does this distance vary by locale, since I imagine the weather in the plains states doesn't vary much given the contours?

No, the USGA has to make the rule as simple and plain and basic as possible.

Originally Posted by mdl

All I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like a huge leap of the amount of greyness you're allowing between "were you actually addressing the ball when it moved?" and "can you set up your smart phone with integrity so as not to gain illegal information while using it for GPS and scoring and stat tracking?".

Addressing the ball has a fairly clear, simple, black and white definition. Take your stance and grounded your club (that changed this year - I'm talking about last year - but it's still clear).

Originally Posted by mdl

It's not very hard to set up your phone during a round to eliminate all possibility of accidentally viewing illegal info.

It's tougher than putting your phone away and not looking at it.

Look, nobody cares what you do in your casual rounds. 99% of golfers don't follow the Rules anyway.

I've said my piece. I've historically been in favor of clear, simple, black-and-white rules. This is one of them.

[mdl]

Eh.  I suppose I'll just disagree with Erik on this one...  If I ever join a real club and need an official handicap (not kept for myself on a phone app), I won't use my phone to keep score during handicap rounds, but I won't like it!  :)

[x129]

I know that is the USGAs point of view but it is a bit of stretch in my mind. A Laser or GPS gives you better information. You are not going to walk to the green from 200 yards out and figure out that the pin is 6.5 yards from center. Yuu are going to eyeball it and end up with an error margin that is signficantly higher than taking out your laser. Sort of like the difference between using your senses to measure the temperature and using a thermometer or guessing wind based on how the tree tops are blowing. But for 99.9% of the golfers knowing that the distance is 152 instead of 148 doesn't matter. They don't have the consistency to take advantage of it. As you say one is in the rules but the other isn't. The reasons why is pretty arbitary.

If you go by the USGA logic, why is slope measurement banned? After all there is no reason why you can't measure the altitude at a bunch of points, stick them in your yard book and calculate slope. AFAIK that would be legal but having a GPS measure the altitude is illegal.

Personally my rule of thumb would be what ever info a good caddie with knowledge of the course would give you (distance, club selection tips, green reading) should be legal.  But admit to being scared to think what app developers could come up with that would take thinking out of the game and reduce it to the ability to repeat swings.

I would also love to see a study of people (obviously would have to be good golfers) given smartphone wind info versus people without and see if the scores varied. I am guessing the answer is no since the info isn't detailed enough. But that is just a guess

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Again, that's always been the case. If you can spend more, you can get (ostensibly) better instructors. Better equipment. Play better courses.

And a GPS or laser doesn't even give you "better" information - it just gives you information FASTER and MORE EASILY than you could get if you had to pace it off or map the course yourself with a piece of paper and a pencil.

Distance is considered common knowledge, yes, per the rules. Has been since I started playing the game and well before that, too. Again, anyone is free to measure the course beforehand. Get a yardstick out there if you want. Hire a surveying team. Common knowledge, per the rules, yes.

Yes, indeed. Wind speed and direction is very useful, particularly to skilled golfers.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mdl

Eh.  I suppose I'll just disagree with Erik on this one...  If I ever join a real club and need an official handicap (not kept for myself on a phone app), I won't use my phone to keep score during handicap rounds, but I won't like it!  :)

Disagreeing is fine. Without disagreement it'd be a really boring site, everyone agreeing all the time. :) I like people who stick up for their opinions. So, thanks.

Originally Posted by x129

You are not going to walk to the green from 200 yards out and figure out that the pin is 6.5 yards from center. Yuu are going to eyeball it and end up with an error margin that is signficantly higher than taking out your laser. Sort of like the difference between using your senses to measure the temperature and using a thermometer or guessing wind based on how the tree tops are blowing. But for 99.9% of the golfers knowing that the distance is 152 instead of 148 doesn't matter. They don't have the consistency to take advantage of it. As you say one is in the rules but the other isn't. The reasons why is pretty arbitary.

The rule isn't arbitrary. Arbitrary is saying some golfers can better use information than others. And most reasonable tournaments provide pin sheets so you're not guessing that the hole is cut 6.5 yards from center.

Originally Posted by x129

If you go by the USGA logic, why is slope measurement banned? After all there is no reason why you can't measure the altitude at a bunch of points, stick them in your yard book and calculate slope. AFAIK that would be legal but having a GPS measure the altitude is illegal.

You're more than welcome to do so. What you can't do is measure the slope during a round. You can pace off or "measure" distance during a round. Lasers and GPS simply allow you to do that. They allow you to actually measure the distance. You can't measure the slope during a round.

Originally Posted by x129

I would also love to see a study of people (obviously would have to be good golfers) given smartphone wind info versus people without and see if the scores varied. I am guessing the answer is no since the info isn't detailed enough. But that is just a guess

It is a guess, and you've ignored the posts from me and others who have pointed out that good players can take advantage of the information.

Oops. I was done. I forgot. I am now.

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

As I already wrote before, I have had some use of the compass when determining the direction of the wind, especially on a course I am not so familiar with.

This I don't understand at all. Where I live there are weather stations 20-50 km's apart and the temp, wind direction and speed, etc. are measured every 5 minutes. This info is then displayed on the web both graphically and numerically. I have consulted this web page propably thousands of times and I have never yet seen that the wind direction would be that different between the stations within 100 km's from my own location. Usually the direction is the same, sometimes there is a difference of 20-30 degrees which with my golfing skills is negligible.

So, in essence this information is very valuable as the wind direction above tree tops is very constant around here (no mountains or very high hills nearby). Thus I have consulted this particular web page a multitude of times both before a round and during (not in competitions, naturally) and noted any change in the wind direction as well as speed. At least for me this has been very helpful.

If you're lucky enough to live in a place where the wind does not gust, then you are indeed, very lucky. I just checked my local weather. Wind speed 16km/h with 31km/h gusts from SSE. How that information would help me RIGHT NOW when it was updated 10mins ago at a weather station 13km away, well, it wouldnt help me. I look outside and the trees are barely moving. My whole point is that weather apps are essentially useless in most cases and that people simply would not use them on every shot even if they could. You would be forced to assess the conditions at the time of the shot anyway.

At the end of the day, I would treat your practice rounds like comp rounds. Challenge yourself to understand and interpret the wind strength and direction like you would on any comp day.

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by iacas

Hey, I'm standing on the green, I can tell if it's fast or slow. Why can't I use my stimpmeter to tell me exactly how fast or slow it is? Oh, and I know the green is tilted, maybe a bit more than the last one, so why not use my digital level to tell me exactly how tilted it is? Oh, and the greens feel pretty firm. Maybe before I hit this pitch shot I should get to use my firmness testing device to tell me how much I can expect my ball to bounce once it lands on the green.

Point made yet?

Sorry Erik, not really. We all know accessing weather information is a violation of the rules. When you have a device that can measure distance and access weather, I think most golfers know that the weather is off limits. As for stimpmeters, penetrometers and levels, well to bring it up is a little over the top to suggest that people will start using their phones to check the slope of the green. I think the total ban is ridiculous, and it does not even affect me. If they are worried about someone taking a peek at the weather, or looking at a compass, then they need an umpire in every group to make sure people mark their ball correctly on the green, they are behind the tee markers when they tee off, they have no more than 14 clubs in the bag, that their equipment is legal, that they dont ground their club in a hazard, that they take the correct relief from a hazard, dont tap down spike marks etc.

Point made yet??

They are pretty much taking away the self adjudication of only one aspect of the game. People will break the rules with or without a smart phone is the point Im trying to make.....

[x129]

And why can't you measure slope? Because of an arbitrary rule. Now sports have to have arbitrary rules (i.e. # clubs, ball size and weight,...) but this isn't in that category.  I have to imagine there is also a reason why they don't let rangefinders in meaningful tournaments.

I think you are over estimating the value of weather that a smart phone can provide. You are not going to get info saying that the wind is blowing 20mph on your hole. You are going to get info saying that it is blowing 20mph at a weather station 7 miles a way 30 mins ago. Not to mention the info wouldn't change the tournament results at all since all players would have the info. It is just another random rule thrown in there to make sure the rule book is nice and thick.

Originally Posted by iacas

Disagreeing is fine. Without disagreement it'd be a really boring site, everyone agreeing all the time. :) I like people who stick up for their opinions. So, thanks.

The rule isn't arbitrary. Arbitrary is saying some golfers can better use information than others. And most reasonable tournaments provide pin sheets so you're not guessing that the hole is cut 6.5 yards from center.

You're more than welcome to do so. What you can't do is measure the slope during a round. You can pace off or "measure" distance during a round. Lasers and GPS simply allow you to do that. They allow you to actually measure the distance. You can't measure the slope during a round.

It is a guess, and you've ignored the posts from me and others who have pointed out that good players can take advantage of the information.

Oops. I was done. I forgot. I am now.