Tiger Wants to Ban the Long Putter

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by iacas

I would not. They're just finding a way of locking one of the wrists (and partially locking the other since it'd require elbow movement to move the other wrist). It may or may not be anchoring - I could see that going either way. If they say "elbow or below" then both are fine. If they say wrists or below then that's just the hands and would allow for any and all of the existing grips.

Someone said somewhere that if they ban anchoring we'll just see a lot of people doing side-saddle putting. I don't know about that, but frankly, I don't care if we see that too. It's still a "stroke." I have a "side-saddle" pitch shot I like to play off steep downhill lies. Looks goofy, works well. I think the fact that it looks really goofy will prevent a lot of people from trying it, though, Sam Snead precedent or not.

Sorry to take this off course, but do you have a Youtube video of this shot?  And when to use it?  If it works... I'd like to learn it and throw it into my arsenal of shots. :D

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by mvmac

It would be interesting to see if they banned anchoring today what Webb and Keegan would do since it's become so normal for them.  Hypothetical of course since the new rule wouldn't take effect for a few years.  I think they've been putting with a belly putter since their college days.  I figure they would go to an Angel style.

I feel bad for guys like Keegan because he has said he has been putting with the long putter for a long time.  Longer than college.  So I would think the change will impact him pretty severely.  But then again, these guys are pros - and good pros at that.  And this is their full-time job.  I'm sure they can adjust accordingly.

[broomhandle]

Originally Posted by iacas

Here's what Peter Dawson has to say about the update(s):

blah anchor blah fixed blah pivot

The thing is next to nobody anchors the club and putts around that pivot.

All the pro belly putters, Scott, Garrigus, Clark, Langer, Kite, Hallberg have the same pivot as Woods, Stricker et al.

The spine between the shoulders.

Watch Adam's left elbow move. It would stay still if the top of the club was the pivot. Look closely and the let hand rotates through space around the spine/shoulder pivot. Just not very much because the radius is so short.

The first batch of senior long putters - Owens, Moody, Mediate(I think) rotated around the 'fixed pivot' but it's a minority now. Even then it's nearly always the hand on the body and the club in the hand than the club truly 'anchored' directly to the body.

What the belly and broomhandle are mostly used for today is to reinforce the big pendulum that is swung around the spine.

One of the few good points I've seen in these threads is that the belly style is essentially normal modern putting using the extra shaft length like a training aid.

We're probably not going to get direct length regulation change and we're probably going to get a prohibition of touching the club to the body. That will knock the snot out of bellies but effect the broomhandle very little. They could ban the hand below the wrist touching the body but the forearm is perfectly sufficient for broomhandling. Banning the forearm touching the body would open a huge can of worms that effected other styles like wrist putting that have been legal and used for most of the known history of the game.

I've been experimenting and even with the left arm entirely free of the body I would stick with the broomhandle. It actually seems MORE accurate than the old method I learned at the start of the long putter era now that I've been coerced to try different things that may stay legal.

Does 'fixed point' mean 'attached to body' or 'stationary'? If one holds the butt of the club totally free of the body and rotates around that point will that be legal? If not it again creates a mess in probably making illegal wrist putting and some split handed methods with short putters that have always been accepted.

At worst we'll get a rule that doesn't really prohibit long/belly putters and long/belly putters only but is interpreted as doing so anyway.

[broomhandle]

Originally Posted by iacas

Which means belly putters (Angel Cabrera) and long putters (I can't think of anyone) will still be legal if they're not "anchored." It seems they're going after the method, not the equipment themselves, which is fine. Frankly, it might be brilliant, because then manufacturers can't complain (i.e. sue) because the equipment wasn't legislated.

What I wonder is whether someone like Matt Kuchar's stroke or Bernhard Langer's stroke (anchored to his forearm) will be legal. Maybe anything below the elbow won't count, or maybe it'll be below the wrist?

Tom Kite(my avatar) voluntarily keeps his left hand clear of the chest. I suspect many of the broomhandlers will just move their hand an inch rather than give it up. Especially the shoulder turners but probably even some of the 'club-only-pivoters' if that isn't specifically persecuted.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

All the pro belly putters, Scott, Garrigus, Clark, Langer, Kite, Hallberg have the same pivot as Woods, Stricker et al.

The spine between the shoulders.

Scott isn't using a belly putter. I don't think Garrigus is either.

And no, their pivot points are not the same, nor are their pivot points in the strokes of Woods and Stricker anchored to something (their belly, their sternum).

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Watch Adam's left elbow move. It would stay still if the top of the club was the pivot.

No, it would stay still if the left elbow was the pivot. If anything his left thumb is the pivot point, or thereabouts, so the part of his hand where his pinkie is rotates and moves a little, and the elbow, being farther out from the pivot point, rotates and moves as well.

Originally Posted by broomhandle

The first batch of senior long putters - Owens, Moody, Mediate(I think) rotated around the 'fixed pivot' but it's a minority now. Even then it's nearly always the hand on the body and the club in the hand than the club truly 'anchored' directly to the body.

That's only true of long putters, not belly putters, which aren't anchored in the hands but in the belly.

Originally Posted by broomhandle

We're probably not going to get direct length regulation change and we're probably going to get a prohibition of touching the club to the body.

Are you willing to bet that the broomhandles aren't going to be affected? I think if they do anything they'll outlaw anchoring in both forms.

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Does 'fixed point' mean 'attached to body' or 'stationary'? If one holds the butt of the club totally free of the body and rotates around that point will that be legal? If not it again creates a mess in probably making illegal wrist putting and some split handed methods with short putters that have always been accepted.

At worst we'll get a rule that doesn't really prohibit long/belly putters and long/belly putters only but is interpreted as doing so anyway.

On that you might very well be right. We'll have to wait and see what - if anything - they do.

[broomhandle]

That sentence was 'all belly putters' plus a list of long putter shoulder turners.

Garigus(sp?) is a broomhandle shoulder turner as are most broomhandlers now.

I'm not sure who's left using the butt pivot method. Senior, I guess.

It's so obvious that the right shoulder turns down and under the spine pivot for the players I listed that I don't know how else to argue it.

What you suggest for Scott sounded feasible until I tried it.

Pivoting the elbow around the hand would then require the shoulder to move.

Basically it would amount to swinging the body around an anchored butt.

Pivoting the hand around the wrist is more feasible but holding the butt with two stationary fingers and pivoting inside them is infinitely easier for the people who use the 'butt pivot' method.

I saw a web article clearly describing the two distinct methods of using the long(broomhandle) putter. I'll link it later but right now I have to put aside the important stuff and go to work.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

That sentence was 'all belly putters' plus a list of long putter shoulder turners.

Garigus(sp?) is a broomhandle shoulder turner as are most broomhandlers now.

I'm not sure who's left using the butt pivot method. Senior, I guess.

It's so obvious that the right shoulder turns down and under the spine pivot for the players I listed that I don't know how else to argue it.

What you suggest for Scott sounded feasible until I tried it.

Pivoting the elbow around the hand would then require the shoulder to move.

Basically it would amount to swinging the body around an anchored butt.

Pivoting the hand around the wrist is more feasible but holding the butt with two stationary fingers and pivoting inside them is infinitely easier for the people who use the 'butt pivot' method.

I disagree. I can also putt with a short putter without pivoting my shoulders much or at all. One can move their wrists and arms without moving their shoulders, after all.

I'm not sure what your point is: they anchor the putter, it's not swung freely, it's "attached" to a part of the body other than the hands. That's what is problematic in the views of many.

[MrKSB]

I feel that it should not be allowed at PGA events.  I understand trying to get every advantage possible, especially as an amateur, but I agree that it does lose at bit of the spirit of the game.   I am all about the history and sprit of the game!  Now, this may just be my opinion getting in the way....which I admit.....I just don't like 'em!

But hey....who am I to judge?

[broomhandle]

This very clearly shows the belly putter stroke around the spine used by EVERY pro belly putter

and the long putter stroke around the spine used by MOST current broomhandlers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-loqG_Xfc&feature;=related

Prohibit pivoting around a fixed anchor and you effect neither because the pivot is in the body NOT at the butt of the club.

There is a method of long putting around the butt of the club but very few of the players mentioned in the recent discussions around a long putting ban use it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

This very clearly shows the belly putter stroke around the spine used by EVERY pro belly putter and the long putter stroke around the spine used by MOST current broomhandlers.

I'm not sure what your point is. The technique in question is not about where the putter pivots (and a belly putter and short putter almost always rotate around different points on the spine) but whether the butt end of the club is anchored or not.

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Prohibit pivoting around a fixed anchor and you effect neither because the pivot is in the body NOT at the butt of the club.

It's a subtle distinction perhaps but nobody's talking about that prohibiting pivoting, they're talking about prohibiting anchoring.

[broomhandle]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm not sure what your point is. The technique in question is not about where the putter pivots (and a belly putter and short putter almost always rotate around different points on the spine) but whether the butt end of the club is anchored or not.

It's a subtle distinction perhaps but nobody's talking about that prohibiting pivoting, they're talking about prohibiting anchoring.

Peter Dawson said, "it's all about putting around a fixed pivot point, whether that fixed pivot point is in your belly or under your chin or on your chest"

Scott's pivot point is not his chest/hand point.

Els pivot is not his belly/club point.

Senior's pivot point IS at his chin/hand.(it is Senior that chin putt's isn't it?)

My overall point is that nobody up to and including Dawson who thinks 'anchoring' is bad has yet defined it competently with respect to how the great majority of pro long putters actually putt..

[broomhandle]

Peter Senior,

"I used to putt like Sam Torrance, and then I forgot which chin I put it on."

ROFLMAO

[mvmac]

Another win for a player using an anchored putter

http://thesandtrap.com/t/60935/fred-couples-wins-the-senior-british-open-at-turnberry#post_750613

[The Recreational Golfer]

Long putters were no a big deal until players started winning with it, just like Dave Pelz said they would years ago.

We need the long putter for players with a bad back. I use a 38" putter, BTW, which I don't anchor, and it's one inch longer than my lob wedge. If you were to play golf with me, you would never notice the difference.

As for anchoring, if I were Webb Simpson or Keegan Bradley or Tim Clark, etc, I would ask my lawyer to start preparing the case for a lawsuit in case anchoring gets banned. What Ping did with grooves, I would do with this, in spades, if I were in their shoes.

[ejimsmith]

i've been using a belly putter for almost 3 months now.  it took some practice to get used to it, and now i'm loving it!   if it were to be banned, then i'd expect the usga to pick up the tab on its purchase.

[broomhandle]

I hate and despise what they're probably going to do to us but they are talking about a decision this year and an effective date of 20 16

That's quite a while to get some use and experiment with alternatives.

[TourSpoon]

One thing that I noticed on the LPGA is the lack of belly putters. Surely, someone on that tour must have one.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

Scott's pivot point is not his chest/hand point.

Els pivot is not his belly/club point.

I disagree. Els is not pivoting his putter around a point between his shoulder blades. He's pretty much pivoting it around his belly button, or a point an inch or so "inside" of it.

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

We need the long putter for players with a bad back. I use a 38" putter, BTW, which I don't anchor, and it's one inch longer than my lob wedge. If you were to play golf with me, you would never notice the difference.

No we don't.

First off, belly putters stand in the same postures as regular putters. Second, Raymond Floyd. He stood really upright and used a longer putter but didn't anchor it - he simply putted normally with it.

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

As for anchoring, if I were Webb Simpson or Keegan Bradley or Tim Clark, etc, I would ask my lawyer to start preparing the case for a lawsuit in case anchoring gets banned. What Ping did with grooves, I would do with this, in spades, if I were in their shoes.

Webb and Keegan and Tim could lose lots of fans, me among them.

Ruling bodies cannot be scared of lawsuits - nor should equipment makers threaten with them - if they want to change the rules for the betterment of the game (as they would feel any such change is). Ruling bodies should have the autonomy.

The PING lawsuit was a lot more involved than you want to make it. It involved equipment verified as conforming and then later marked as non-conforming, and a whole lot more.