Can you have lots of lag and still flip?

**nevets88** · February 18, 2012

Does having Sergio Garcia like lag guarantee you proper impact, ball first, flat wrist, divot after ball? Or is it the other way around, a consequence of a good strike promotes lag or not throw away?

**EverythingGolf** · February 18, 2012

I think it's more important to make shure you maintain a flat wrist and hands leading through impact. Lag will help you do that and it will help create more power to hit the ball farther.

gmbtempe · February 18, 2012

There is creating lag, then there is delivering lag to impact, there are not created equal.

Ricky Fowler dumps all his lag and stalls and barely can hold onto his alignments without flipping. Carl Peterson has little lag compared to Ricky yet delivers the lag that he does have through impact more efficiently.

***iacas*** · February 18, 2012

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

There is creating lag, then there is delivering lag to impact, there are not created equal.

Ricky Fowler dumps all his lag and stalls and barely can hold onto his alignments without flipping. Carl Peterson has little lag compared to Ricky yet delivers the lag that he does have through impact more efficiently.

QFT.

Some of the amateurs we see who have the most "lag" at A4.5 have completely chucked it out and are flipping by A7.

**JackLee** · February 20, 2012

Flipping occurs when your arms out race your body movements. You get to the release and your body is not in position to allow you to swing through with a straight lead arm, a square clubface, and a flat lead wrist. So, you must either flip, or close the clubface, or leave the clubface open, or bend your lead elbow, or some combination of these. Your subconscious will do its best to prevent you from hurting yourself.

The cure: Do not allow your arms to do any of the swinging. Learn how to swing a golf club with your body and hands, as it should be.

I'm wondering why I waste my time with this.

***iacas*** · February 21, 2012

Originally Posted by JackLee

Flipping occurs when your arms out race your body movements.

Nah. Saw it in two juniors yesterday whose bodies outraced their hands/arms. Thus they had to flip - late - to try to get the club on the ball. It's fairly common.

The problem with the thing you so desperately want to advertise, JackLee, is that it does't work for everyone, or even the majority of people. Every good golfer's arms move across their chest through actively engaged and used muscles. Their arms do a tremendous amount of swinging. Your arms move across your chest in one direction in the backswing, and across your chest the other direction in the downswing. They aren't just dragged along by the body's rotation or movement. You'll get no argument from me that it may not feel like the arms are just along for the ride to some people, but that's never actually the case and those who feel that are in a small minority.

Feel free to stop wasting your time any time, particularly since you just try to subtly spam and never have any actual proof or can state the "why".

**Apotheosis** · February 21, 2012

iacas has it right for sure. Look at any super slo-mo video of a pros swing. You can see the muscles of the arms working to complete the swing.

**sean_miller** · February 21, 2012

Originally Posted by JackLee

Flipping occurs when your arms out race your body movements. You get to the release and your body is not in position to allow you to swing through with a straight lead arm, a square clubface, and a flat lead wrist. So, you must either flip, or close the clubface, or leave the clubface open, or bend your lead elbow, or some combination of these. Your subconscious will do its best to prevent you from hurting yourself.

The cure: Do not allow your arms to do any of the swinging. Learn how to swing a golf club with your body and hands, as it should be.

I'm wondering why I waste my time with this.

I swing my arms as fast as possible with a driver or a long iron. Not sure how to get my hands and club quickly to the ball otherwise. Can you post a video?

**badfish74** · February 21, 2012

I was using the whole "don't swing with your arms" theory and it just wasn't working for me. When I consciously initiated by downswing by using my weight shift my arms seemed like they were trailing behind quite a bit which I believe was killing my distance because I never felt that complete turn through the ball. The last few balls I had at the range changed my thoughts and started initiating my downswing by swinging my arms and hands down on the same plane and the next shot with my 3 wood was about 240 right down the middle. I finished the bucket out and had good results and also later hitting into my net at home. It feels to me like when I get those arms and hands down on that plane my body is automatically moving in the right direction and getting my weight forward. It's been feeling really good is all I know, but I am aware that many times that don't mean squat. LOL

**JackLee** · February 21, 2012

Originally Posted by iacas

Nah. Saw it in two juniors yesterday whose bodies outraced their hands/arms. Thus they had to flip - late - to try to get the club on the ball. It's fairly common.

The problem with the thing you so desperately want to advertise, JackLee, is that it doesn't work for everyone, or even the majority of people. Every good golfer's arms move across their chest through actively engaged and used muscles. Their arms do a tremendous amount of swinging. Your arms move across your chest in one direction in the backswing, and across your chest the other direction in the downswing. They aren't just dragged along by the body's rotation or movement. You'll get no argument from me that it may not feel like the arms are just along for the ride to some people, but that's never actually the case and those who feel that are in a small minority.

Feel free to stop wasting your time any time, particularly since you just try to subtly spam and never have any actual proof or can state the "why".

Erik, you do not seem to understand how to swing a golf club while making your body movements subconscious and perfect every time. However, it is your forum, so feel free to keep teaching whatever you like.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a spammer. I got that.

Have you ever wondered why so many players are reluctant to pay for lessons. It is because most instructors and other good players do not know how to make the body movements subconscious, even though they may have lucked into the habit of doing it without knowing it. They certainly cannot teach it because they do not understand their own swings. So, they teach positions, movements, sequencing, arm swinging, etc., etc. Money wasted!!!

**mdl** · February 21, 2012

Quote:

Erik, you do not seem to understand how to swing a golf club while making your body movements subconscious and perfect every time. However, it is your forum, so feel free to keep teaching whatever you like.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a spammer. I got that.

Have you ever wondered why so many players are reluctant to pay for lessons. It is because most instructors and other good players do not know how to make the body movements subconscious, even though they may have lucked into the habit of doing it without knowing it. They certainly cannot teach it because they do not understand their own swings. So, they teach positions, movements, sequencing, arm swinging, etc., etc. Money wasted!!!

Wait, so you're saying golf coaches shouldn't teach positions or sequencing? Take a beginner, let him have whatever positions and sequencing he wants, tell him over and over again to swing only with his body and hands, and magically and subconsciously a perfect swing emerges? That can't really be what you're saying, cause that's just straight retarded. It's a well known fact that the only way to ingrain a motion subconsciously is to practice it (correctly) over and over again. If your natural golf swing has things the prevent you from arriving at impact correctly and consistently, just telling yourself, fire only with your body, use your hands to finish, arms dragged along by body (or whatever version of body and hands only you want), is not going to magically subconsciously ingrain a good consistent swing.

I'm a case in point. I've just recently saved enough money to start taking some lessons while not having to essentially stop being able to play regularly to afford it. The teacher pointed out that I bow my wrist on the take-away and get to P2 way inside, then continue on that plane and end up at P4 with my club pointing right of the target. I'm a very athletic, coordinated guy, so I've developed some compensations that have let me get down to ~10 with good green side play and decent putting, but it's no wonder that with my swing getting to those two positions at P2 and P4 that my natural, flowing, fire with the body and stay smooth swing had me hitting very pretty pushes way right of my target.

I'd known this about my swing from video of myself, but I showed him the ways I've tried to fix it and it turns out I'd tried to not come inside at P2 and stay on a better plane by keeping the club outside my hands in a way that severely hooded the club, which left me in a position at P4 from which I needed equally good and hard to make consistent compensatory moves as from my natural P4, and only succeeded in making my standard miss a nasty pull-hook instead of a big push baby fade.

With some help from my coach I'm working really hard now on ingraining correct positions at P2 and P4 to make them subconscious and natural, and while I'm thinking too much about mechanics on the course right now, even with those mechanical thoughts, just getting to the right position at P4 much more regularly already has the strings of good shots feeling much more natural, and less like a luckily great streak of good timing, and I feel like I could finally make a huge leap and finally get over my 80s player plateau. I worked for years just trying to fire with my hips and think about having my hands in the right position at impact and a scratch swing never did magically materialize.

***iacas*** · February 21, 2012

Originally Posted by JackLee

Erik, you do not seem to understand how to swing a golf club while making your body movements subconscious and perfect every time.

I'm happy to put my knowledge to the test. I'd fare well.

Originally Posted by JackLee

Anyone who disagrees with you is a spammer. I got that.

No, I'm only referring to you. You've got a long history of spamming TST for the swing method you prefer.

Originally Posted by JackLee

Have you ever wondered why so many players are reluctant to pay for lessons. It is because most instructors and other good players do not know how to make the body movements subconscious, even though they may have lucked into the habit of doing it without knowing it. They certainly cannot teach it because they do not understand their own swings.

That's not why players are reluctant to pay for lessons. Not based on the polls and data I've seen, and what I've heard from talking to people, and what I've seen pros, players on the Tours, etc. talk about.

Where's your golf swing? Where's any actual information about what you believe in? JackLee, it's time to put up or shut up. Time to get dirty or get gone.

The simple fact is that you can't just "let your arms" tag along or whatever. They are involved, and actively fire, during the golf swing. EVERY good golf swing.

You've never done anything to share any information here. You skirt along the edges of "spam" with little teasers about how miraculous the swing theory you like might be if only people visit this site or google this term. Again, time to put up or shut up. Start giving information in the posts you make - backing it up with something credible - or find somewhere else to troll.

Today Dave taught a lesson from a guy who needed to feel his arms getting down faster. Guy went FROM a flipper TO a guy with forward shaft lean. We see that all the time - and it speaks to the opposite of what you said above. Right here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5simplekeys/250312161718793/ .

**JackLee** · February 22, 2012

"You've never done anything to share any information here."

Absolutely false. I have explained my swing in this forum more than once. I also have a great many posts here where I have answered players questions without any mention of the instruction that I use.

Maybe you have just never considered that the information that I have shared might have merit, so you have just dismissed it as no information at all. That's the nicest explanation I can think of for your statement.

Don't bother to reply. I'm sure it would not be worth my time to read it.

***iacas*** · February 22, 2012

Originally Posted by JackLee

"You've never done anything to share any information here."

Absolutely false. I have explained my swing in this forum more than once. I also have a great many posts here where I have answered players questions without any mention of the instruction that I use.

To answer the second part first, your pattern was such:

1) Link to the site

2) When asked to stop doing that, you instead told people to google a certain phrase3

3) When asked to stop doing that, you're now resorting to your current tactics of giving out even less information as a sort of tease.

You've never debated any of the information I've shared (because you can't). You've never actually shared information of your own other than in teasing drips like the post above. You've never posted your swing. You've never explained WHY the thing you like so much works. And you make constant remarks about how engaging in discussion about the golf swing is a waste of your time, about how I don't know anything, and blah blah blah.

Perhaps you could start with these:

1) "Flipping occurs when your arms out race your body movements."

- I think that's wrong. You almost never see someone flipping whose arms have "outraced" the "body movements." But then again this ties into your lack of information: what do you mean by "body movements"? Again, I linked to a Facebook image showing someone whose body outraced his arms and led to flipping. His solution was to bring the arms down faster . They were arriving at the ball too late and he had little choice but to flip to try to save contact. It's common. I taught two kids the other day who had to do the same thing.

Nobody who plays golf well just moves their body and lets their arms get dragged along. Nobody. On the PGA Tour I'm not even sure you could find someone who would say they feel like that's what happens. And that may not even be what you mean, but who knows, because you've never said. If you told people, they wouldn't have to go buy your buddy's eBook.

2) "So, you must either flip, or close the clubface, or leave the clubface open, or bend your lead elbow, or some combination of these."

- Oh, only those several things? In other words, you'll possibly do every wrong thing in the book if you don't do what you suggest? C'mon.

3) "Your subconscious will do its best to prevent you from hurting yourself."

- I agree. But why would someone be hurting himself? What about the correct motion is "hurtful"? Impact with the ground? What? You routinely make statements without any backing information or explanation.

4) "The cure: Do not allow your arms to do any of the swinging. Learn how to swing a golf club with your body and hands, as it should be."

- Why "should" it be that way? "How" does one accomplish this? Practice it? "What" does it feel like? Look like? Produce? "When" should things occur? You can't answer those questions, though, because you've got your buddy's eBook or whatever to sell, right?

5) "I'm wondering why I waste my time with this."

- I don't know. I would suggest that sharing information is not a waste of time, nor is being open to feedback. You don't do either.

Again, choose to actually participate (without the spamming or teasing) or choose to stop "wasting" your time. Pick one.

**sean_miller** · February 22, 2012

Originally Posted by JackLee

"You've never done anything to share any information here."

Absolutely false. I have explained my swing in this forum more than once. I also have a great many posts here where I have answered players questions without any mention of the instruction that I use.

Maybe you have just never considered that the information that I have shared might have merit, so you have just dismissed it as no information at all. That's the nicest explanation I can think of for your statement.

Don't bother to reply. I'm sure it would not be worth my time to read it.

Can you explain how the problem of the clubhead and hands outracing the arms could not be cured by swinging the arms faster? With even less passive hand action? I'm really looking forward to your reply.

**Tomboys** · February 22, 2012

Maybe he's selling belly irons...

steventimothy · February 23, 2012

There's no question that the pros have got way, way, way more lag in their swings than most amateurs. Show me a pro who doesn't have at least 90 degrees of angle between the arm and the club when the left arm is parallel to the ground on the downswing. Almost no medium to high handicappers achieve that. And of course, all the tour's longer hitters have much more lag even than that. So it's absolutely ridiculous to say that you can get (big time) distance without lag. The more cogent question is, how do you get lag like that? And more importantly, how can poor ballstrikers or short hitters learn to get that lag? Most instructors understand how to get lag but have trouble training students on how to do it. It might be because they are athletic, and underestimate the athleticism and coordination of their students.

Also, no decent ballstriking pro ever flips his hands or loses his right wrist angle at any point during the swing. Maybe sometimes when they really get the club stuck behind them they do a little flip, but if they did that and you saw a still image of their swing just after impact, it would still look nothing like the flipping that a poor playing amateur does.

Most good ballstriking pros, 45 degrees of swing arc or more after impact, still have their left arm straight, left wrist flat, and their club shaft parallel to their left arm. Almost no amateurs can do that; their club will have swung past the angle of their arm, usually by a lot, and their left wrist is no longer flat. IMO that, more than anything else, is the secret to long hitters' distance.

I think it means that, first of all, they started with lots of lag on the downswing, and second of all, they kept their hips moving forward and turning, and their shoulders turning all the way to the finish of the swing, the club always being towed behind.

Maybe one mental image a person can have to help lag and distance is to think of the maximum extension of the swing being well after impact, maybe 20-30 degrees after impact. That would keep the club acclerating through the impact zone, and might help get rid of some of the flipping.

steventimothy · February 23, 2012

This is obviously clubhead lag....

And then...

This is a good place to think of the maximum extension of the swing, where the lag should all be released. NOT at the bottom of the swing or at impact

Even if you try, you probably won't get to Rory's position in the full swing, but it's a good image to shoot for, to help prevent flipping.

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