Tiger calls 17 "gimmicky"

[ragontona]

"I've always thought that that hole is too gimmicky for the 17th hole of a championship. As far as the 8th hole, I think that would be a fantastic 8th hole, but not as the 71st hole of a tournament or 17th hole of your round."

I tend to agree with him. I've always thought 17 at Sawgrass to be contrived and overrated. Others vehemently disagree.

Your thoughts?

[arran]

i sort of agree with the 17th hole at sawgrass being overated. i know its an island green but its a pitching wedge or so for the pros. for me it would be sort of hard because its an 8 iron for me but you shouldn't miss a green with a pitching wedge, i don't know if the water makes the player nervous, maybe thats why its a tough hole, i never played it so i don't know

[MGP]

I've never been a big fan of "target" golf and the 17th is definitely that. I remember when they built the TPC at Sawgrass and how "innovative" the 17th was. It certainly was different than almost anything else at the time but as Tiger said "gimmicky".

I think water is overly used in course design these days, especially in the situation like the 17th at Sawgrass where there's absolutely no bailout area. You hit the green or you're wet.

I love the old school courses where there's trouble strategically placed on a hole so that it catches poorly played or planned shots. But the old school designers also almost always gave the player a way out with the opportunity to play an excellent recovery shot.

To me golf is all about mistakes and recovery.

[B-rad]

It may be a "gimmick" but you will see some double digit (+10) scores on that hole. It happens every year.

[jorruss]

i sort of agree with the 17th hole at sawgrass being overated. i know its an island green but its a pitching wedge or so for the pros. for me it would be sort of hard because its an 8 iron for me but you shouldn't miss a green with a pitching wedge, i don't know if the water makes the player nervous, maybe thats why its a tough hole, i never played it so i don't know

The 17th at the TPC @ Sawgrass is a visually intimidating hole. I have played it a few times, and if you take the water away it becomes a weak par three. The green is pretty big, and you are hitting a 9 iron or wedge, so it should be a pretty simple hole, but the water gets your mind thinking about the trouble, rather than the green. It's a good mental test on the final stretch of a tournament. Pete Dye at his best.

[Ogg]

I love 17 for the fact that it is so unique and it comes on the best set of finishing holes on the Tour. Nick Price and David Duval both said it is a real cheek clencher coming down the stretch and we need more of those instead of the driver wedge par 4's.

Tiger can call it gimmicky all he wants but it doesn't necessarily make it so.

[jrbechthold]

Never played Sawgrass, but have played other island greens and they definately mess with your mind. I don't agree with Tiger that it would be a good # 8 hole... Just as jorrus mentioned, it is a good mental challenge at a time when you need it most... coming down to the wire with the tournament on the line.

[MountainHip]

"2: Of the 25 winners of THE PLAYERS here, only two winners have made a bogey on the 17th hole on Sunday, Steve Elkington in 1991 and Fred Funk in 2005. Of these winners, 13 have made par, nine have made birdie and two made bogeys."

I don't think it's gimmicky, Everyone has an opinion.
It's a challenge at the end of a championship.

http://www.nbcsports.com/golf/1461662/detail.html

[bigboom]

its one of my favorite holes to watch at Sawgrass...do i think its gimmicky? yes but as a television viewer i find it very entertaining.

[iacas]

I think water is overly used in course design these days, especially in the situation like the 17th at Sawgrass where there's absolutely no bailout area. You hit the green or you're wet.

To be fair, with a wedge in your hands and a fairly large green in front of you, why do you care about a bail-out area? I don't think short par 4s (again, a wedge) need bail-out areas, and greens on par fives don't need bail-out areas either, unless you want a collection area for people going for the green in two.

I agree with Tiger that it's gimmicky as the 71st hole of a championship. They all talk about the wind. Phil hit five or six balls in the water in a practice round. Why? The wind. Though it hasn't really happened yet, pure luck in windy conditions should not affect the outcome of "the fifth major" (I say in jest). The 17th has the chance to do that - let pure luck affect the outcome - and that is what makes it gimmicky. It'd still be gimmicky as the 8th hole, too, but at least then you could recover with good golf over the next 10 holes.

[popey]

The hole is doing exactly what it was designed for one this thread. Making waves and causing people to talk about it.

The hole is great becasue these days water is the only hazard that plays cannot master. Bunkers are easy for the tour players (with some puposely aiming for them on par 5's to stop the ball) and rough is easy enough if you have a wedge in your hand. Water is the best way to harness these players and I hope it plays the hardest hole on the course to prove you all wrong.

[popey]

I agree with Tiger that it's gimmicky as the 71st hole of a championship. They all talk about the wind. Phil hit five or six balls in the water in a practice round. Why? The wind. Though it hasn't really happened yet, pure luck in windy conditions should not affect the outcome of "the fifth major"

Playing in the wind does not require luck it is a skill that most of the tour players should be able to use. If the winds in your face take 2 extra clubs and hit a low punch into the green.

THESE ARE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD AND THEY NEED TO BE TESTED. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY ALL THE SHOTS IN THE BAG. We all moan when a player hits the ball 350 and then hits a wedge to a few feet, at least this hole requires some mental skill and some shot making capability, not just to swing as hard at the ball as possible. **Cough Bubba Cough**

[Naruto]

HECK NO IT'S NOT GIMMICKY... that holes the best par 3 in golf and the fact that it's the 17th....35th....53rd...and 71st hole makes it superb for the tour. what do you mean it's too hard. it's a freaking 9 iron, you're tiger woods for crying out loud... you know 240 yard 7 iron up hill out of thick rough over an oak to the front of the green at pebble tiger.... 210 yard 6 iron to a back pin over a lake: chip in at augusta on 16 from no mans land and make the greatest nike commercial ever .... yeah that's you... you're that guy. no way you are bothered by a 150 yard par three with water around it?

you guys know that he wouldn't feel that way if he had better showings at sawgrass... if he had a dozen top tens and 3 or 4 wins there he would be saying it was a great test of skill that makes the players step up.

just my opinion.

[Clubswinger21]

Define "gimmicky" If he's saying that its there just for the excitement of the fans and nothing else. Sure, then its gimmicky. It cause's excitement.. potential for alot of bad shots and being so short, alot of good shots. So he's saying it shouldn't be there because its going to cost alot of guys the tournament.

Personaly, I think its weak that he's suggesting it be #8. Maybe he's scared of it? Maybe he feels like its the reason he's only won there once? Maybe he should shut up and leave the course set up to the tournament officials?

[iacas]

Playing in the wind does not require luck it is a skill that most of the tour players should be able to use. If the winds in your face take 2 extra clubs and hit a low punch into the green.

And if the wind switches in the middle of your downswing?

The wind isn't constant there. Phil talked in his interview about coming up short and going long with the same club. A constantly switching wind is LUCK and has little to do with skill.

What do you mean it's too hard. it's a freaking 9 iron, you're tiger woods for crying out loud...

Not once has Tiger said the hole was "hard" or "difficult" or any other such thing. He called it "gimmicky." Let's not put words in his mouth.

Define "gimmicky" If he's saying that its there just for the excitement of the fans and nothing else. Sure, then its gimmicky. It cause's excitement.. potential for alot of bad shots and being so short, alot of good shots. So he's saying it shouldn't be there because its going to cost alot of guys the tournament.

I stand by my assertion that "gimmicky = too much luck involved" for Tiger's taste. Tiger likes golf courses that reward good shots over anything else, because he's the best player in the world. The more luck you introduce, the less Tiger's skill matters.

Personaly, I think its weak that he's suggesting it be #8.

Perhaps he was just saying it could be #8 because that would involve flipping the nines. I don't think he was actually commenting on where, among 18 holes, he'd place such a hole. I think assuming he was doing that is delving a bit too deeply into his comment.

[tartanjack]

I think I have to agree with Erik - and Tiger. Because it presents so few options and because, yes, the wind can be as much a luck factor as a skill factor.

Is it fun to watch the best players in the world get dry-mouthed facing this hole? Yes. Is it appropriate for an event which aspires to major status? No.

Unless the re-do at Sawgrass changes things dramatically, I don't consider the course a major-caliber venue. If Augusta is the Louve, Sawgrass is Disney World. Tom Weiskopf said playing there was like being in a pinball machine. There's only so much "tilt" you can apply before luck takes over. So, in that way, the 17th hole is a perfect fit for that place.

All that new clubhouse needs to fit perfectly into Florida culture is a pink flamingo on the lawn. Yuck.

[Clubswinger21]

I just dont under stand whats lucky about it. When the wind blows like it did last year its pretty much 50/50 your going to hit. So in that case you could call it luck. Under clubbing with a wedge and having it spin back in to the water rather then hitting knockdown 9 isnt luck. Its a wide surface granted its not that long front to back, so miss clubs are common. All it does is get in guys heads, it create's intimidation.. they start thinking negative thoughts and get negative results. Nothing lucky or unlucky about hitting a bad shot. If the wind blows i can see your point.

I think maybe Tiger means that down the stretch if you're trying to catch someone or hold someone off by making birdie. That hole shouldnt be #17. Simply for the fact that no one goes to 17 thinking 3 feet from the flag, 1 putt birdie, unless they're trying to catch the leader and win the tournament. They're thinking middle (widest part of the green) 2 putt for your par and get the hell out of there. He's saying its wrong to have it there because you have to be crazy to go for the flag when its in those sucker positions.

[LarryK]

Is it fun to watch the best players in the world get dry-mouthed facing this hole? Yes. Is it appropriate for an event which aspires to major status? No.

And that really is

the point! Salute.