new ball flight laws - question

[808hacker]

OK so if what I am reading is correct - direction is approximately 85% of the clubface aim - where it is pointing. Clubface swing path??? determines curve.

So to hit a draw, you setup square, open the clubface a little, swing inside to outside or "to the right".

But if the "true" ball flight rules say that an open clubface curves the ball right, then what exactly is happening with the clubface when you swing inside to out? What exactly is making the ball curve??? From the True flight laws, it would seem the clubface is closed. So it's closed according to the path of the club swing path, but pointed to the right of the target??

I am confused as to the difference between an open face (which is supposed to make the ball go right), and an open face at impact which makes the ball curve right. What does the swing path do to the ball at impact and how is that different from the clubface being open or closed?

Thanks in advance.

[Zeph]

There are some confusion out there on this subject. We have to differentiate between two relationships. A: Clubface relative to swing path B: Clubface relative to stance alignment To hit a draw (ball moving in the air from right to left), without regard to [i]where[/i] it is going, the clubface must be closed to the path. If you align square to the target and wants to hit a draw that ends up by the target, you have to hit a push-draw. A push-draw starts to the right of your alignment and curves back towards it. Since we know the clubface has to be closed to the path to hit a draw, and the clubface has to be open to your alignment, we can make out how to hit this shot. The clubface must be aimed to the right of your alignment to get the ball starting in that direction initially and the path must be to the right of the clubface, which is farther right of the alignment. Push = ball starts to the right of your stance alignment Pull = ball starts to the left of your stance alignment Square = ball starts parallell to your stance alignment Try reading the material that exist out there before asking more questions. It's all there, you just have to read and understand it. Not just the "85%" part, but the reason behind it. http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[filco123]

i was shocked to hear yesterday that it is the club face angle that has 85 percent baring on the initial start of ball diection.Its a fact and been scientificly proved by trackman. So i went straight down the range to  see if it worked. wel im not a pro so obviously there was no massive change  but i will continue use the new flight law concept. jus one thing though. can anyone explain to me, why  then when in the past, i have had to play a hook around a tree, its worked .why has the old flight worked for all the pros. surely the old flight lws would never have worked but did and does,so has trackman made a mistake?

[iacas]

  filco123 said:

Originally Posted by filco123

i was shocked to hear yesterday that it is the club face angle that has 85 percent baring on the initial start of ball diection.Its a fact and been scientificly proved by trackman. So i went straight down the range to  see if it worked. wel im not a pro so obviously there was no massive change  but i will continue use the new flight law concept. jus one thing though. can anyone explain to me, why  then when in the past, i have had to play a hook around a tree, its worked .why has the old flight worked for all the pros. surely the old flight lws would never have worked but did and does,so has trackman made a mistake?

Because your body knew that if the face was pointed at the tree it'd drill it, so your body didn't aim the face at impact where your brain was telling it to. The "old stuff" didn't "work" for anyone - that would defy physics - their bodies just knew to over-ride what their minds were saying in order to hit the shot.

[14ledo81]

  iacas said:

Because your body knew that if the face was pointed at the tree it'd drill it, so your body didn't aim the face at impact where your brain was telling it to. The "old stuff" didn't "work" for anyone - that would defy physics - their bodies just knew to over-ride what their minds were saying in order to hit the shot.

I would not say their "body" over rode their mind. Maybe "sub conscious mind" over rode.

[iacas]

  14ledo81 said:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I would not say their "body" over rode their mind. Maybe "sub conscious mind" over rode.

For the purposes of this discussion, same thing. Either way they delivered the face and path at impact in a way that varied from what they thought they were trying to do.

[filco123]

ok so i subconciously changed my set up to what the new ball flight laws say? maybe thenwe should never geta pro to help teach us ,we can teach our selves subconciously by just trial and error. if this was known befor trackman came long why wasnt everyone taught it.ould it be that this i secret to golf that so many of us are chasing?

[808hacker]

Not sure about these ball flight laws in terms of implementation. The old way worked for a lot of people and it was a relatively simple thing to do. The new way seems just "iffy" in terms of implementation and due to the path AND club face open/close - still make for a complex relationship.

If the swing path were perfect, then yeah, it's easy to just aim the club face, but the swing path rarely is (for normal people), so it's not so easy. IMO.

[mvmac]

  808hacker said:

Originally Posted by 808hacker

Not sure about these ball flight laws in terms of implementation. The old way worked for a lot of people and it was a relatively simple thing to do. The new way seems just "iffy" in terms of implementation and due to the path AND club face open/close - still make for a complex relationship.

If the swing path were perfect, then yeah, it's easy to just aim the club face, but the swing path rarely is (for normal people), so it's not so easy. IMO.

As Erik said:

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

The "old stuff" didn't "work" for anyone - that would defy physics - their bodies just knew to over-ride what their minds were saying in order to hit the shot.

Just because you "believe" in something doesn't mean that's what actually happens.

You don't need a perfect swing path (whatever that is).  The face projects the ball and the ball curves away from the path. The easiest way to hit a fade is to aim the body left of the target, the easiest way to create an outward path is to have the weight forward, handle forward at impact with the handle raising.  You can even aim the body right if you need to put in all the draws pieces.  Don't need to swing left or right to change path.

[808hacker]

I'm not contesting the laws. All I am saying is IMO that it's not as simple to do as some people say and whatever the reality is, many people seem to be able to do things the old way. Now that we know the truth, I'd like to know many people are actually doing any better because of it? Has it transformed anyone's playing? Why isn't this the most major breakthrough in golf? In print it seems to be an incredible find.

[Righty to Lefty]

Oh I see so much of myself in some of these posts because I was that same person who doubted the new ballflight laws. Once I understood the new ball flight laws and the D Plane you quickly see that the old BFL's are completely nowhere close to correct.  From experience I can say without a doubt that the old BFL's will give you the shot shape.....but it will be nowhere close to the target unless you manipulate the shot either knowingly or unknowingly.

I looked at videos on youtube until completely understood.  D Plane is important to know because it explains basically why ball position is so important to executing shot shapes and then the New BFL's allow you to put a governor on the amount of draw or fade the shot has by changing the clubface/clubpath relationship.  I always explain draws and fades in relation to the target line because it is the easiest for me to explain and that is how most of the instruction that I've seen does it.  I have been on both sides of this arguement and Iacas got me straightened out and I haven't looked back since. Take the time to learn them and apply them along with the D Plane and it will definately pay off.

[onesome]

I thought you just aimed the face where you want the ball to wind up and just either open or close your stance. Isn't this the way Nicklaus did it?

[mvmac]

  onesome said:

Originally Posted by onesome

I thought you just aimed the face where you want the ball to wind up and just either open or close your stance. Isn't this the way Nicklaus did it?

Read this

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[iacas]

  808hacker said:

Originally Posted by 808hacker

All I am saying is IMO that it's not as simple to do as some people say and whatever the reality is, many people seem to be able to do things the old way. Now that we know the truth, I'd like to know many people are actually doing any better because of it? Has it transformed anyone's playing? Why isn't this the most major breakthrough in golf? In print it seems to be an incredible find.

To answer the two bold things:

1) NOBODY did things the old way. What they thought they did was not reality. It's that simple.

2) Yes. Lots of people.

  onesome said:

Originally Posted by onesome

I thought you just aimed the face where you want the ball to wind up and just either open or close your stance. Isn't this the way Nicklaus did it?

No. Physics did not exist differently for Jack Nicklaus than everyone else.

[xmanhockey7]

  onesome said:

Originally Posted by onesome

I thought you just aimed the face where you want the ball to wind up and just either open or close your stance. Isn't this the way Nicklaus did it?

That's how Nicklaus thought he did it. I know a pro who still uses the old train of thought "club path determines where the ball starts and face where it ends up". He is a good player and knows that it is no longer true but for him, when he plays, that's how he thinks of it.

[808hacker]

Like I said, I am not contesting the laws. All I am saying is that just because it's a law and it makes sense (after studying and studying) doesn't mean it's easy to understand or apply. If this is so easy, why do we have to watch youtube videos and do all this when it's so easy? If it's transforming players, why isn't the info drawn out in an easy to understand way? Why not sell it since everyone else seems to sell the same tips over and over? Maybe....

1: People enjoy being the only ones that know and enjoy telling others that they are wrong and the usual answer - go figure it out yourself applies.

2: It's not that easy to apply or understand and maybe the old way although theoretically wrong - did work _seem_ to work - even though it's technically incorrect.

3: Some people want to make money - the same people that keep on saying golf is easy - or that all you have to do is this or that - and it will happen.

4: insert your own.

If all of this were so easy we would all be great players.

It SEEMS as if the answer is simple:

Aim club face for direction

Swing path determines curvature

Now try and do it consistently. Try it the old way or the new way.

Does it really matter which way you do it if it works for you?

[808hacker]

Here's a 40 minute explanation of the new ball flight laws. 40 minutes to explain this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepMzddHpas

[808hacker]

This one is only 10 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR2zLVBSQm4&feature;=related