Tonight is our club pairs league.. Question on calling out another player.

[Jefferey13]

Did he post a higher score than normal after you guys helped him out so much?

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Teepee65

How about instead of walking to your ball first, go to his and check it out? How could he change his "lie" if you have witnessed his drive.

How could he change his lie? quite easily. If he is in the woods, lost, its not hard to drop a ball and pretend its yours. 'Oh, look, I found my ball in this opening, and what do you know, i've got a clear line to the green'. It really is not difficult.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Jefferey13

Did he post a higher score than normal after you guys helped him out so much?

He shot a 94, his partner shot 90.

It seems to be his average round in competition, even though he's supposedly an 8 handicap..

[Motley01]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

He shot a 94, his partner shot 90.

It seems to be his average round in competition, even though he's supposedly an 8 handicap..

An 8 handicap shooting mid 90s? Ya alrightythen...

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by Motley01

Ya it's strange, that at the start of your match, that you all don't identify each other balls and markings on the #1 tee?

I play in Amateur Tournaments all summer long, and it's the rules, stated very clearly, that we must all each idenitify each of our balls and markings, on the first tee.

If we hit a tee shot that looks like it may be lost, we MUST hit a provisional, and also identify which ball the provisional is (must be different from the original ball).

We also swap score cards with others within our foursome. So there is very little cheating going on.

These are USGA rules, so your league should be playing by these?

I do not think there is any USGA rule requiring someone to show their ball, or even tell others what ball they are using, before a round.  Rule 6:5 is fairly minimal:

6-5 . Ball

The responsibility for playing the proper ball rests with the player. Each player should put an identification mark on his ball.

In other words, the only person responsible for identifying a golf ball is the one playing with that ball.  But the 'should' in the second sentence is almost a must, since the intention of the rule is that the player can, without doubt, know his/her own ball.  It's not enough to have a brand and number.  The ball you find could be someone else's and not yours if that is the only info you have.  The key question would always be: "Could this ball belong to someone else?"  If the answer is any kind of "yes" then it cannot be assumed to belong to the player who is searching.

The issue behind this whole posting is trust.  Golf is a game that assumes trust, both in complying with the rules and calling penalties on yourself if something goes wrong (like the ball moving as you address it).  There will always be a minority who deliberately break rules.  Once others recognize that then, if they have good evidence, they should certainly challenge that player.  I suppose the ultimate informal sanction is that others refuse to play with or against a person known to breach the rules.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Alistair

I do not think there is any USGA rule requiring someone to show their ball, or even tell others what ball they are using, before a round.  Rule 6:5 is fairly minimal:

Yeah, this is a good idea, but not the law. It may be acceptable as a local rule / condition of competition, but it's certainly not a Rule of Golf. (Additionally, I don't believe requiring a provisional be played is even a permissible rule, since it implies waiving the rule permitting stroke and distance after searching for your ball. Again, it's a good idea, but the Rules of Golf quite intentionally don't require it.)

[TourSpoon]

It is not uncommon before the start of a round, for someone to pull out the ball they are using and hold it in front of them and say, "I am playing a Titleist #2 with three red dots". Usually the rest of the group follows suit and identifies their ball in a similar way. It doesn't happen every time, but I find it usually happens with a more serious game, especially if some of the players play the same brand.

[nitrxjunky]

My suggestion is don't be uncomfortable about telling someone he is violating a rule. Put the onus back on him to follow them. If you suspect he is doing such things just watch him and them point out to him what you saw. "I saw you do________, make sure you count the penalty for it as you would not want to be disqualified for turning in the wrong score." Point blank, non accusatory. Just the facts ma'am.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by nitrxjunky

My suggestion is don't be uncomfortable about telling someone he is violating a rule. Put the onus back on him to follow them. If you suspect he is doing such things just watch him and them point out to him what you saw. "I saw you do________, make sure you count the penalty for it as you would not want to be disqualified for turning in the wrong score." Point blank, non accusatory. Just the facts ma'am.

We would never let him just get away with it. Thing is, he's one of those guys who everyone knows has a pre-marked ball in his pocket. No matter how deep in the woods his tee shot goes, he always seems to find it in a good lie with an open lane to pin.

Anyway, there was only one questionable 'find' when we played them (because we watched him like hawks when we could), and we beat them by 17 strokes (aggregate scoring). This is a league created by us members (though we do have some sponsors, including the club), and we don't give or take strokes based on handicap. You have to win it with good golf, not free strokes. We shot a 167 to their 184. The winners get free memberships next year as well as the Trophy we are having made.. Second gets their pick of new Drivers or Scotty Putters in the pro shop. Third gets $150 gift cards for the Pro Shop. And since our teams have pulled so many points ahead of third place, we are pretty much locked in for a very nice prize when the season ends August 14th unless both of our games go to hell..

With last weeks league play, we moved into a tie for first. We play the team we are tied with next week. We are pretty positive of a win tomorrow as well, as we are playing the team who is 3rd from last. I really hope the other team tied for first wins tomorrow as well, then next week when one of us moves ahead of the other, we will know its because the best team is in first. They are both playing decent golf, so its a challenge my partner and I are looking forward to. This week though, they have to play against Perfect Lie Paul. (and I have told them our strategy for watching him).

[rustyredcab]

There is breaking the rules and there is cheating. Someone may break a rule out of ignorance. Let them know and be done with it. I recall as a newer golfer, I was playing with a client and his boss. My client (who was also my partner) and I both hit nice drives in the middle of the fairway, perfect lies, within a few feet of each other, and neither ball was obviously marked while looking down from the top. I bent over to roll one ball to see if it was mine or my partners. We'd played many times and this kind of thing was common as it did not improve the lie. "Don't touch your ball even if it means lying on your belly to identify your ball. My boss plays strictly by the rules and today, we do too." Since that day, I would never touch my ball without permission and only by the rules for identifying my ball.

But, there is no ignorance excuse for dropping ball and saying it is the one you hit earlier. No one is confused by this. And, even in a "fun" league, there is no room for cheaters. If you ever saw it, I'd ask him to leave the league unless he wants you to make a big deal of it. If it is a private club, I'd ask him to consider resigning rather than have you make sure that everyone knows he cheats. I've heard of a member cheating against the president of the member committee. After the round, the cheater was presented with a check for his equity and the manager of the club said, "I understand from Mr. X that you wish to resign and he asked that I cut your cut immediately." The guy took the check and left without questioning anyone. Harder for clubs to replace members these days. Still, I like to thing that if I belonged to a club, the members would at least share some honor on the course.

[Jefferey13]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

We would never let him just get away with it. Thing is, he's one of those guys who everyone knows has a pre-marked ball in his pocket. No matter how deep in the woods his tee shot goes, he always seems to find it in a good lie with an open lane to pin.

Anyway, there was only one questionable 'find' when we played them (because we watched him like hawks when we could), and we beat them by 17 strokes (aggregate scoring). This is a league created by us members (though we do have some sponsors, including the club), and we don't give or take strokes based on handicap. You have to win it with good golf, not free strokes. We shot a 167 to their 184. The winners get free memberships next year as well as the Trophy we are having made.. Second gets their pick of new Drivers or Scotty Putters in the pro shop. Third gets $150 gift cards for the Pro Shop. And since our teams have pulled so many points ahead of third place, we are pretty much locked in for a very nice prize when the season ends August 14th unless both of our games go to hell..

With last weeks league play, we moved into a tie for first. We play the team we are tied with next week. We are pretty positive of a win tomorrow as well, as we are playing the team who is 3rd from last. I really hope the other team tied for first wins tomorrow as well, then next week when one of us moves ahead of the other, we will know its because the best team is in first. They are both playing decent golf, so its a challenge my partner and I are looking forward to. This week though, they have to play against Perfect Lie Paul. (and I have told them our strategy for watching him).

How is it that a score of 167 has you in a tie for first without the use of handicaps? I play at a pretty mediocre course in Idaho and if free memberships and scottys were being given away and HDCP was not being used, the winning scores would be around 135-140. Do you limit the play to only people who are of a certain playing level thereby actually making it as if you were playing with handicaps? If not, I think I may come win a new R13 next year at your course.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Jefferey13

How is it that a score of 167 has you in a tie for first without the use of handicaps? I play at a pretty mediocre course in Idaho and if free memberships and scottys were being given away and HDCP was not being used, the winning scores would be around 135-140. Do you limit the play to only people who are of a certain playing level thereby actually making it as if you were playing with handicaps? If not, I think I may come win a new R13 next year at your course.

We used Handicaps for entrance into the league at the beginning of the year. So yes, its the same as actually using Handi-caps.

On that note, Perfect Lie Paul was caught cheating last night by his own partner. His partner went to a marshall and told him, Paul was kicked out of the league, and his partner forfeited due to being alone.

Paul was steaming mad. His partner was only embarrassed. but like we told him, he has nothing to be ashamed about for playing by the rules. He gained a ton of respect in everyone elses eyes, and has nothing to be ashamed of.

We remain tied for first in points.

[bigwave916]

I always carry an extra ball in my pocket for the same reason many of you do, like provisionals and replacing balls fired into a hazard. After reading this thread, I'm thinking I might add a "P" to the second ball just so there's no doubt among my competitiors.

About Paul's vanity handicap, I play with guys who roll the ball around, never hit off a bare lie, a root, or out of a divot. Then make 'em play by the rules and their score balloons up 8 to 10 strokes and they whine like little babies.

Maybe Paul's handicap is accurate as long as he never has a bad lie, lost ball, or other "difficulty"

BigWave

[Jefferey13]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

We used Handicaps for entrance into the league at the beginning of the year. So yes, its the same as actually using Handi-caps.

On that note, Perfect Lie Paul was caught cheating last night by his own partner. His partner went to a marshall and told him, Paul was kicked out of the league, and his partner forfeited due to being alone.

Paul was steaming mad. His partner was only embarrassed. but like we told him, he has nothing to be ashamed about for playing by the rules. He gained a ton of respect in everyone elses eyes, and has nothing to be ashamed of.

We remain tied for first in points.

Oh okay makes sense about the HDCP. And that is impressive of his partner. Seems like he would have just been warned and penalized since that was his first time being caught.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by Jefferey13

Oh okay makes sense about the HDCP. And that is impressive of his partner. Seems like he would have just been warned and penalized since that was his first time being caught.

I dont know all of the details, but I do know that it was outright cheating. Using a second ball, right in front of his partner. It was the league supervisors decision to kick him out. But the partner only had to forfeit one match. He can pick up one of the alternates for the rest of the season, keep his points from before, and probably have a better partner.

If im not mistaken, he already chose a partner from what I have heard. But that is second hand info, I havent seen him since tuesday. Either way, good for him. I actually think he's glad to be rid of him. He was worried about getting a bad name from him.

[Snowgolf]

Anytime I play in a tournament we always identify your ball that you are hitting (make/model/number/mark) on the first tee. We also exchange score cards you never carry your own card. Also when hitting a provisional ball you need to declare it as a provisional and identify he ball before hitting.

I you know that your opponent is posting a incorrect score YOU can be disqualified for allowing it and signing as his marker.

[Dave2512]

Personally I wouldn't say anything. I don't like cheating but I like drama on the golf course even less. I see people doing things I don't like all the time. Unless it's breaking a law or could potentially harm me or those around me I leave it alone. If he's actually do that and has done it enough to earn the name he's already in a bad place.

[onesome]

Hopefully Paul will learn from this experience, everyone makes mistakes and errors in judgement and he would be doing himself a great disservice by having a chip on his shoulder, people usually want to move on from these sort of things and he should to.