What's the rush? Golf's obsession with slow play.

[Lihu]

[URL=http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323740804578601882312192680]http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323740804578601882312192680[/URL] Good article on the subject by John Paul Newport.

Nice article. I think the part about uninterrupted play being more important than actual pace is very interesting.

[Fourputt]

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323740804578601882312192680 Good article on the subject by John Paul Newport.

Excellent article, and it does a good job of refuting some of the myths that seem to be the most common complaints, while adding some support to other issues which are often disregarded.  Note that nothing is mentioned about age or gender in the article, so maybe that can finally be put to rest.  He does make a point which is often pooh-poohed about players playing right right tees for their skill level.  Much of the blame is leveled at the courses and their management, which really is where it should be.  My home course has a reachable par 5 for the 2nd hole and a par 3 4th, both of which can have a wait on the tee a wait.

A lot of this is what I know from working on a course for 5 years, but I was rarely able to get any agreement when I brought up some points because I didn't have any scientifically significant statistics to support my observations.  The most telling comment is about the fact that most players won't even notice how long a round takes as long as they are able to keep playing at a smooth rate without the starts and stops and delays which we are so often stuck with.

[ay33660]

Sorry,but that isn't how it works in real life.  When a course (public course anyway) has a pace of play policy and a group is maintaining that pace, it doesn't matter to the course if they are losing ground on a faster group.  If the faster group can play through, fine, but if they get snotty or self-righteous about it when there are more on pace groups ahead, then they are the ones in the wrong. A course can't post a policy, then get on a group for not beating the required pace, nor can you play faster than the speed which the course is flowing.

When my friends and I play on a typical day on my home course we can be well within the policy pace and still be waiting on every shot.  The rangers can only act if a group is playing slower than the posted pace.  As a result, my friends and I spend a lot of time waiting, even during a 4 hour round.  Unfortunately, despite all of the internet hoopla and hand-wringing, I don't see any concerted effort by most courses to make any great changes.

Well maybe not a public course but my club is private and a sub 4 hour round is EXPECTED for every group within the 1st hour of the first tee time.

We have to punch a time card when we tee off and again when we finish. Non adherence to the pace of play policy will result in a letter for a first offence, a week suspension of booking privileges for a second offence and a month suspension of booking for a third offense.

Pace of play at my course is one of the selling point for new members.

To me playing a sub 4 hour round does not mean having to rush. It just means that you need to prepare yourself properly.

But there is definitely an advantage to a private club as there are means to enforce pace of play policies. Also the members are familiar with the course and know where their wayward shots usually end up.

Honestly I can only remember 1 round in many years that exceeded 5 hours and we were following a junior tournament and were warned by the proshop before we teed off.

I wonder if a public course could instigate a time clock policy whereby finishing additional time faster than the posted pace of play results in vouchers for drinks or food at the club. For example if you finish 20 minutes under you get a $20 food voucher for your group. This would create traffic for the restaurant and a good pace for the club. It is often more effective to bribe rather than to threaten.

[BuckeyeNut]

certain golfers don't deserve early prime tee times....

[Parker0065]

Well maybe not a public course but my club is private and a sub 4 hour round is EXPECTED for every group within the 1st hour of the first tee time.

We have to punch a time card when we tee off and again when we finish. Non adherence to the pace of play policy will result in a letter for a first offence, a week suspension of booking privileges for a second offence and a month suspension of booking for a third offense.

Pace of play at my course is one of the selling point for new members.

To me playing a sub 4 hour round does not mean having to rush. It just means that you need to prepare yourself properly.

But there is definitely an advantage to a private club as there are means to enforce pace of play policies. Also the members are familiar with the course and know where their wayward shots usually end up.

Honestly I can only remember 1 round in many years that exceeded 5 hours and we were following a junior tournament and were warned by the proshop before we teed off.

I wonder if a public course could instigate a time clock policy whereby finishing additional time faster than the posted pace of play results in vouchers for drinks or food at the club. For example if you finish 20 minutes under you get a $20 food voucher for your group. This would create traffic for the restaurant and a good pace for the club. It is often more effective to bribe rather than to threaten.

A lot of it depends on the course design and walking versus riding. At my home course due to a number of extremely long walks  and huge elevation changes between tees it adds nearly 40 minutes to the round when walking. I've played numerous parkland style courses well under 3 hours because the next tee box is near the last green.

So it may be easy for your club to enforce your rule but it may not apply in all situations!

[ay33660]

A lot of it depends on the course design and walking versus riding. At my home course due to a number of extremely long walks  and huge elevation changes between tees it adds nearly 40 minutes to the round when walking. I've played numerous parkland style courses well under 3 hours because the next tee box is near the last green.

So it may be easy for your club to enforce your rule but it may not apply in all situations!

You are absolutely correct. There is no way to suggest a sub 4 hour round is possible at all courses and I was only stating that a sub 4 hour round is enforced at my club.

My home course was established in 1910 so it is the old style golf course.

Just up the street from my house there is a new resort style golf course that has huge elevation changes and crosses lots of street between holes. There is no way for the average group of four to finish in under 4:30 walking.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ay33660

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Sorry,but that isn't how it works in real life.  When a course (public course anyway) has a pace of play policy and a group is maintaining that pace, it doesn't matter to the course if they are losing ground on a faster group.  If the faster group can play through, fine, but if they get snotty or self-righteous about it when there are more on pace groups ahead, then they are the ones in the wrong. A course can't post a policy, then get on a group for not beating the required pace, nor can you play faster than the speed which the course is flowing.

When my friends and I play on a typical day on my home course we can be well within the policy pace and still be waiting on every shot.  The rangers can only act if a group is playing slower than the posted pace.  As a result, my friends and I spend a lot of time waiting, even during a 4 hour round.  Unfortunately, despite all of the internet hoopla and hand-wringing, I don't see any concerted effort by most courses to make any great changes.

Well maybe not a public course but my club is private and a sub 4 hour round is EXPECTED for every group within the 1st hour of the first tee time.

We have to punch a time card when we tee off and again when we finish. Non adherence to the pace of play policy will result in a letter for a first offence, a week suspension of booking privileges for a second offence and a month suspension of booking for a third offense.

Try that policy on a course with a full reservation sheet from 5:30 AM until after noon, with starting time intervals of 8-9 minutes.  And I wish you luck with it.  Believe it or not, there are probably more golfers out here who can't ether afford or justify the expense of a private club than there are those who can.  You private clubbers keep telling us how great it is, but if it's not a justifiable expense, then it's irrelevant.  We are stuck on public courses, but that shouldn't mean that nothing can be done.  If a course even started small, moving the time up 10 minutes.  The once they achieve that, try for another ten, and so on until they reach a realistic optimum for the course and the player load.  For a busy course that is pretty much never going to be under 4 hours.

Quote:

I wonder if a public course could instigate a time clock policy whereby finishing additional time faster than the posted pace of play results in vouchers for drinks or food at the club. For example if you finish 20 minutes under you get a $20 food voucher for your group. This would create traffic for the restaurant and a good pace for the club. It is often more effective to bribe rather than to threaten.

It can't work, because aside from the first 4 or 5 groups in the morning, the rest of the players are not in control of their own destiny.  Too many players would not be eligible for vouchers due to the slow play of other groups.  No way they can afford offer a large enough reward to be a sufficient incentive to enough players to matter.

[ay33660]

Try that policy on a course with a full reservation sheet from 5:30 AM until after noon, with starting time intervals of 8-9 minutes.  And I wish you luck with it.  Believe it or not, there are probably more golfers out here who can't ether afford or justify the expense of a private club than there are those who can.  You private clubbers keep telling us how great it is, but if it's not a justifiable expense, then it's irrelevant.  We are stuck on public courses, but that shouldn't mean that nothing can be done.  If a course even started small, moving the time up 10 minutes.  The once they achieve that, try for another ten, and so on until they reach a realistic optimum for the course and the player load.  For a busy course that is pretty much never going to be under 4 hours.

It can't work, because aside from the first 4 or 5 groups in the morning, the rest of the players are not in control of their own destiny.  Too many players would not be eligible for vouchers due to the slow play of other groups.  No way they can afford offer a large enough reward to be a sufficient incentive to enough players to matter.

You are absolutely correct. It is very difficult to enforce pace of play at a public course as the pro shop there do not have the ability to penalize those who don't adhere to it.

You are also correct that this discussion should be limited to public courses as that is where the vast majority of golfers play.

So my $64,000 question is that if pace of play is something the majority of golfers are concern with, then why doesn't everyone try to do their part to solve it in their own groups. For instance here are some of the things that we do in my regular group -

- everyone going to their own ball (if you are ahead of the other then stand off to the side) instead of walking in one group to each person's ball and doing some of the pre-shot routine if you are not in the way or distracting them, this give you time to measure distance etc.

- have at least one person keeping an eye on the other players shot

- doing the majority of your putting routine while other are putting as long as you are not in their way or distracting them

- try to have each player putt out instead of marking and then waiting for the next person

- have the first person who putts out go to the next tee and get ready for their drive

- park your golf carts where you don't have to go back to retrieve

- only have one other person help look for lost balls, the other members will play their next shots with one keeping an eye on the other players shot

- the first person to hit the next shot can then come back to help look for the lost ball and allow the other person to hit his shot

- it there is any question of a lost ball or OB issue play the provision shot right away

I still think vouchers may still work but they would need it to be tailored to different pace of play expectations based on the time of day. If a course has an expected pace of play of 4:20 then maybe something like this -

- first hour 4:00

- second hour 4:10

- third hour 4:20

- fourth hour 4:30

- fifth hour and onwards 4:40

Maybe the truth of the "pace of play" issue is that the majority of golfers really don't care.

[Fourputt]

So my $64,000 question is that if pace of play is something the majority of golfers are concern with, then why doesn't everyone try to do their part to solve it in their own groups. For instance here are some of the things that we do in my regular group -

- everyone going to their own ball (if you are ahead of the other then stand off to the side) instead of walking in one group to each person's ball and doing some of the pre-shot routine if you are not in the way or distracting them, this give you time to measure distance etc.

- have at least one person keeping an eye on the other players shot

- doing the majority of your putting routine while other are putting as long as you are not in their way or distracting them

- try to have each player putt out instead of marking and then waiting for the next person

- have the first person who putts out go to the next tee and get ready for their drive

- park your golf carts where you don't have to go back to retrieve

- only have one other person help look for lost balls, the other members will play their next shots with one keeping an eye on the other players shot

- the first person to hit the next shot can then come back to help look for the lost ball and allow the other person to hit his shot

- it there is any question of a lost ball or OB issue play the provision shot right away

I still think vouchers may still work but they would need it to be tailored to different pace of play expectations based on the time of day. If a course has an expected pace of play of 4:20 then maybe something like this -

- first hour 4:00

- second hour 4:10

- third hour 4:20

- fourth hour 4:30

- fifth hour and onwards 4:40

Maybe the truth of the "pace of play" issue is that the majority of golfers really don't care.

Most of us who understand that it's an issue do try as best we can.  But when you are one or two groups in the middle of a big slow, it's pretty useless.  When I worked in the starter booth, I saw too many early groups which had as little understanding of pace of play as any later group.  It isn't just a case of time of day.  What can be done must be done on a full time basis.

Pace of play has moved in the wrong direction over the years.  My home course has had the same posted pace for nearly 30 years, 2:10 per 9 with a 5 minute allowance at the turn for a total of 4:25.  In the mid 80's, that posted time resulted in the slowest times on a bad day being just about 4:30.  Now there are days when we are hitting 4:30 before noon, meaning that groups who started in the first hour are taking their sweet time and lollygagging around the course, secure in the knowledge that they are "on pace".  When you are faced with that reality that early in the day, if anyone actually has a problem with lost balls or just bad golf, they put a little bump in the flow throwing everything off track, and once lost it's nearly impossible to recover.  Put 2 or 3 of those bumps out there and 5 hour rounds are unavoidable.  Yet it's very difficult to tell a paying customer "No, you can't search for that ball out in the native rough," or "Yes you have to pick up and catch the group ahead of you who have opened a hole and a half gap."

If they haven't been properly informed of the pace of play policy, shown how to keep a good pace, and shown how the policy is enforced from the outset, then they won't take it seriously, and they will resent being singled for "unfair" punishment.  If they have been clearly informed before they start, then by teeing off they are making a tacit commitment to adhering to the policy and have no grounds for resentment or complaint when the policy is enforced.

I have played with a great many players at that course over the 35 years I've played there regularly, and 4 hours is very doable for a mid handicap (12-16) player.  Even for a bogey golfer it isn't a stretch.  I've played in a fivesome on a weekday in 3:55, and that is playing with wagers and playing by the rules.  I don't recommend groups of five or more, although our course did allow it under certain conditions (5 players in three carts and a commitment to keep pace), but not on busy weekends.  If we could do it as a five, then anyone should be able to keep up as a foursome if they just receive a little education.

[bkuehn1952]

Each year, I try to play my age in golf holes, in a day. I played 58 holes on Nov 11.

Hey, I know another guy in B.C. who does the same thing.  He uses the name "windowsurfer", I believe.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Try that policy on a course with a full reservation sheet from 5:30 AM until after noon, with starting time intervals of 8-9 minutes...

...

So my $64,000 question is that if pace of play is something the majority of golfers are concern with, then why doesn't everyone try to do their part to solve it in their own groups. For instance here are some of the things that we do in my regular group -

Wow, 8-9 minute intervals? That would be some amazingly fast golf. Is that for pros?

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships . Is it really worth that much money to play?

I am pretty happy playing from $20 to $90 per round, and the occasional $150 splurge. I see two courses near my house that cost that much to play. San Gabriel and Annandale probably cost $64,000 or more. That means you pay roughly 64000/20(years roughly)+10000/year (maintenance)= $250 per round at 1 round per week. Yes, you get free range balls. But wow, even $125 per round at two per week is kind of high!

If I play two of the public courses near each of those two private courses: Brookside and Santa Anita. It costs around $29 for Santa Anita and $60 for Brookside. A range key gives you $7.50 large buckets.

What is the draw to play these private courses? If you just put the money in a CD, you can play around 1500 rounds at the public courses. That comes out to 14 years twice a week or 28 years at once per week playing the prime times.

I don't see the appeal, and you need to be invited to join one of these clubs anyway.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Try that policy on a course with a full reservation sheet from 5:30 AM until after noon, with starting time intervals of 8-9 minutes..

Quote:

Wow, 8-9 minute intervals? That would be some amazingly fast golf. Is that for pros?

Those are starting times, not per hole times.  9 minutes is more than enough time for a foursome to play their tee shots, get to their balls, play their second shots, then clear the fairway for the next group.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Try that policy on a course with a full reservation sheet from 5:30 AM until after noon, with starting time intervals of 8-9 minutes..

Quote:

Wow, 8-9 minute intervals? That would be some amazingly fast golf. Is that for pros?

Those are starting times, not per hole times.  9 minutes is more than enough time for a foursome to play their tee shots, get to their balls, play their second shots, then clear the fairway for the next group.

I guess I misinterpreted what you wrote as a full reservation sheet with starting intervals of 8.5 minutes till noon.

[ay33660]

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships. Is it really worth that much money to play?

Sorry Lihu - my "$64,000 question" quote was not in reference to the cost of joining a club.

It is in reference to a TV game show in the 50's.

It is a quote used to reference the top or penultimate question as $64,000 was a fortune in the 50's.

Today's quote would probably be "million dollar question".

I guess I am aging myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_$64,000_Question

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships. Is it really worth that much money to play?

Sorry Lihu - my "$64,000 question" quote was not in reference to the cost of joining a club.

It is in reference to a TV game show in the 50's.

It is a quote used to reference the top or penultimate question as $64,000 was a fortune in the 50's.

Today's quote would probably be "million dollar question".

I guess I am aging myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_$64,000_Question

Hopefully it isn't a reference to the true significance of that game show, as it was the cause of one of the worst scandals in TV history when it was found out that the game was rigged.  Some contestants were being given the answers.  It put a blot on the TV game show industry for years.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships. Is it really worth that much money to play?

Sorry Lihu - my "$64,000 question" quote was not in reference to the cost of joining a club.

It is in reference to a TV game show in the 50's.

It is a quote used to reference the top or penultimate question as $64,000 was a fortune in the 50's.

Today's quote would probably be "million dollar question".

I guess I am aging myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_$64,000_Question

Nice read. I did not know television could reduce crime, but apparently this show did!

Unfortunately, I watched all of 100 hours (high estimate) my entire life.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ay33660

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships. Is it really worth that much money to play?

Sorry Lihu - my "$64,000 question" quote was not in reference to the cost of joining a club.

It is in reference to a TV game show in the 50's.

It is a quote used to reference the top or penultimate question as $64,000 was a fortune in the 50's.

Today's quote would probably be "million dollar question".

I guess I am aging myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_$64,000_Question

Hopefully it isn't a reference to the true significance of that game show, as it was the cause of one of the worst scandals in TV history when it was found out that the game was rigged.  Some contestants were being given the answers.  It put a blot on the TV game show industry for years.

The article seemed to indicate that two other shows were rigged, and this one had the "opposite problem". For example, the sponsor did not like Joyce Brothers, who outwitted the question makers to get the grand prize!

But maybe that's Wiki-change_it_yourself-pedia.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by ay33660

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

$64,000 seems to be a magical number for many private course initial memberships. Is it really worth that much money to play?

Sorry Lihu - my "$64,000 question" quote was not in reference to the cost of joining a club.

It is in reference to a TV game show in the 50's.

It is a quote used to reference the top or penultimate question as $64,000 was a fortune in the 50's.

Today's quote would probably be "million dollar question".

I guess I am aging myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_$64,000_Question

Hopefully it isn't a reference to the true significance of that game show, as it was the cause of one of the worst scandals in TV history when it was found out that the game was rigged.  Some contestants were being given the answers.  It put a blot on the TV game show industry for years.

The article seemed to indicate that two other shows were rigged, and this one had the "opposite problem". For example, the sponsor did not like Joyce Brothers, who outwitted the question makers to get the grand prize!

But maybe that's Wiki-change_it_yourself-pedia.

I was there.  My mom loved the show and when it abruptly vanished she was terribly disappointed until the news came out that it was rigged.  I don't think she really got into another quiz type show until the original Jeopardy! aired in 1964 (the year I graduated from high school) with Art Fleming as the host.  Almost 50 years later I still like Jeopardy!

Now back to our scheduled programming!