Match Play... order of play ?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

This is one for the rules committee. Decide what the club wants to do.

I play at a semi-private club with a lot of skilled and dedicated golfers, but the mantra at our place is "play ready golf".

IF you get into regional match-play tournaments, you need the rules committee to explain what to do. How much leeway does the rules committee have in adjusting match-play procedures to encourage ready golf?

Originally Posted by KevCarter

33-1. Conditions; Waiving Rule

The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

This is the way it is.

In match play it can make a difference in the mental aspect of the game.  If Player A should hit a very good or a very bad shot, it can affect the strategy used by Player B for his next shot, and maybe even for the remainder of that hole.  So order of play can be crucial in match play.  With stroke play, you are playing against the entire field, and it isn't necessarily significant what happens in your own group.

[Bullisok]

I had this happen to me yesterday in my match. My opponent requested another guy play with us. I agreed and after one of the other guys told me he always has his friend play with him in match play and I should say NO to him because he coaches him and keeps him calm. I told him it didn't matter if I play my game that's all that matters... The guy who he asked to join us is a scratch golfer with a GREAT short game. there were a couple time when He would chip or putt and would end up just past my opponents ball and then would have to putt and it would give him the line. Was he having an off day around the green? I Won the Match on the 18th hole but if I lost I was going to tell the next person in line to not let him play with them...

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

How does that old saying go...

You are not paranoid if they really are after you.

My 'order of play' problem still makes me angry.

You want it to be a friendly game...

but some players do not deserve a friendly game of golf.

YET some of the blame still goes to the tournament committees...

who do not emphasize what the TRUE rules of match play are !

There are still innocents amongst us....

but your opponent & his silent partner does not seem to be one of them!

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Guys.  Maybe you don't understand what he was saying.  The other two guys in the foursome were not part of the match.  They were just casual players.  The type of competition that the OP is referring to is a bracketed tournament in which the players have a specified time window (it might be a 2 or 3 week span) to get together and play their match, with the winner moving on to the next bracket.  That or the winner gets points toward a season long total.  In any case, the players in the match may not have any control over who they are paired up with, thus the potential issues involved in trying to play a match under the rules while the other 2 players are just out for a casual round.  The 2 casual players should make every effort NOT to do anything which might affect the match.  That includes allowing the match to putt first even if they are closer to the hole, rather than one of the non-involved players possibly assisting one of the match players.

Ideally the match should play by themselves, or line up 2 friends to play with who understand what the situation is (this is what I always tried to do).  That isn't always possible, so if you get paired with a random couple who isn't part of the competition, then you end up with the sort of issues that the OP describes.

I gotta disagree with that. If my buddy & I are out for a regular round and through no choice of our own, get paired up with two guys playing a match, why should we have to change the way we play to fit the needs of the other two? Now, I've never had this happen but I believe I would have an issue with somebody telling me when I can and cannot putt, regardless of who's away, strictly because the other two are playing a match. IMO.

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

As the original poster let me clarify...

The two players were not casual players we were grouped with...

they were in fact the regular partners of my opponent!

When I said

"I asked the 2 non Match Play players to honor the rules of  Match Play for putts as well. In at least a couple of early hole situations I felt the other players definitely gave reads to my opponent by putting out of turn. By the 4th hole I felt it was clearly unfair and possibly being done purposefully so I openly raised the point."

I was trying to be diplomatic. At more than one point my opponent actually encouraged one of the others to putt out of turn. "I'm not ready, why don't you go ahead and putt."  It was that bad and to me obvious. I must say I am surprised players have posted that they would not honor "order of play" to keep the match fair. I can assure you I will likely try to only have one on one matches in the feature.  Even as a casual player I would certainly honor the order of play. BTW I was not asking them to play after our shots... I just wanted the order of play to be followed for all 4 players.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

I gotta disagree with that. If my buddy & I are out for a regular round and through no choice of our own, get paired up with two guys playing a match, why should we have to change the way we play to fit the needs of the other two? Now, I've never had this happen but I believe I would have an issue with somebody telling me when I can and cannot putt, regardless of who's away, strictly because the other two are playing a match. IMO.

Mostly because your round doesn't mean squat, while theirs is tournament round. And in stroke play, order of play is mostly immaterial.  Why is it such a big deal to you?  Or do you just enjoy pissing people off?

[HackMeister]

Originally Posted by Fourputt   Why is it such a big deal to you?

You know how those "owners" are Fourputt, it is "his" course after all.

Don't you just love hitting into their footprints in the traps and fixing their ball marks before you putt ?

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Mostly because your round doesn't mean squat, while theirs is tournament round. And in stroke play, order of play is mostly immaterial.  Why is it such a big deal to you?  Or do you just enjoy pissing people off?

Well excuse me for putting forth an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. . If your match play round is so important and my regular round doesn't mean "Squat", you'd think that the comittee wouldn't pair the two groups together. Oh and it's not a big deal to me, I just stated my opinion.Why so angry about it, or do you just enjoy pissing people off?

[luu5]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

If your match play round is so important and my regular round doesn't mean "Squat", you'd think that the comittee wouldn't pair the two groups together.

If it is cup/league match, I guess committee would not book times but the players by themselves. So they may not have possibility to reserve whole slot. It would still be important to them.

What would be the reason you would not honor these two guys playing a match, as I understood you were playing stroke play?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

Well excuse me for putting forth an opinion that doesn't agree with yours.. If your match play round is so important and my regular round doesn't mean "Squat", you'd think that the comittee wouldn't pair the two groups together. Oh and it's not a big deal to me, I just stated my opinion.Why so angry about it, or do you just enjoy pissing people off?

The players book the times to play in the case as mentioned, not the committee.  Unless they can find a couple of friends to play with, they are at the merciy of the tee sheet and the starter for the course.  I played such match play competitions for 22 years at a public course.  If we couldn't get up four players ourselves, then we played with whomever we got paired with, and I never had a single issue with someone expressing an opinion like yours.  Most golfers are quite gracious when the circumstances are explained to them.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by luu5

If it is cup/league match, I guess committee would not book times but the players by themselves. So they may not have possibility to reserve whole slot. It would still be important to them.

What would be the reason you would not honor these two guys playing a match, as I understood you were playing stroke play?

I didn't say I wouldn't give them honors, I said I would probably have an issue with some random player telling me when I can or cannot putt regardless of who's away. I guess it would depend on how the other players broached the subject. If they discussed it with me & my playing partner before the round and asked if we minded if they putted out first on each hole, I don't see where I'd have an issue with that. I guess what got my dander up was the opinion/suggestion that my round somehow becomes meaningless simply because the other two guys are playing match play, my round is meaningful to me even if I'm just out for my regular weekend round.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The players book the times to play in the case as mentioned, not the committee.  Unless they can find a couple of friends to play with, they are at the merciy of the tee sheet and the starter for the course.  I played such match play competitions for 22 years at a public course.  If we couldn't get up four players ourselves, then we played with whomever we got paired with, and I never had a single issue with someone expressing an opinion like yours.  Most golfers are quite gracious when the circumstances are explained to them.

If it was discussed with me & my partner I don't think I would have a problem at all, I almost always go out as a twosome and have never had any issues with the people I've been paired with. I just feel that you haa a pretty arrogant attitude by telling me that my round means nothing simply because your playing match play. If my partner and I are playing for money, does that make my round more meaningful? All my rounds are important to me, whether I'm playing for money or just enjoying a day on the course.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

If it was discussed with me & my partner I don't think I would have a problem at all, I almost always go out as a twosome and have never had any issues with the people I've been paired with. I just feel that you haa a pretty arrogant attitude by telling me that my round means nothing simply because your playing match play. If my partner and I are playing for money, does that make my round more meaningful? All my rounds are important to me, whether I'm playing for money or just enjoying a day on the course.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the match players should snottily demand that you stand aside, because their real match is happening. They should simply explain the situation and ask their non-competing partners to cooperate in the interest of fair play of the tournament.

And I don't think there's much debate that a tournament round is "more meaningful" than a typical casual Sunday outing. That's not to say that your enjoying yourself is not important, just that you're less likely to be interfered with by playing out of order than they are if one of their competitors gets a free read on their putt.

If you're playing with money on the line, then sure, you're playing a competition. That's a different situation, but I'd still be inclined to yield to the tournament match.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by zeg

I don't think anyone was suggesting the match players should snottily demand that you stand aside, because their real match is happening. They should simply explain the situation and ask their non-competing partners to cooperate in the interest of fair play of the tournament.

And I don't think there's much debate that a tournament round is "more meaningful" than a typical casual Sunday outing. That's not to say that your enjoying yourself is not important, just that you're less likely to be interfered with by playing out of order than they are if one of their competitors gets a free read on their putt.

If you're playing with money on the line, then sure, you're playing a competition. That's a different situation, but I'd still be inclined to yield to the tournament match.

I guess some of the posts just hit me in the wrong way.

[fr0sty]

Originally Posted by Bullisok

I had this happen to me yesterday in my match. My opponent requested another guy play with us. I agreed and after one of the other guys told me he always has his friend play with him in match play and I should say NO to him because he coaches him and keeps him calm.

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead, but three things bear mentioning:

1. If this situation presents itself later, Decision 2/1 is relevant:

2/1

Players in Singles Match Accompanied by Third Party

Q. Prior to a singles match between A and B, A stated to B that a third player, C, would be playing with them. B played the match under protest and lost. What ruling should the Committee give?

A. A single is a match in which one plays against another. Since B made a timely claim, the Committee should have awarded the match to B. If B had not protested, i.e., had agreed that C accompany the match, the result of the match would stand as played.

2. Unless player C could somehow be considered a Caddie for A, any "coaching" given is actually "advice" and in violation of Rule 8-1.

3. C's play around the greens to give reads to A (if it is obviously purposeful) is in violation of the spirit of the game (decision 30-3f/6 ), could be giving advice (decision 8-1/23 ), or maybe something else but I can't find other good decisions at the moment.