commonalities of pros..........maybe not

[logman]

Man, it's like listening to a late night infomercial....It's the five easy steps show....staring Iacas as as the DVD salesman... Anyway, I had a hit today at one of the local municpals, had a bad round, I think I was tired after a big work week(or maybe I didn't keep my head still enough, Haha). But the thing that I noticed was that as my LPG swing got tireder and tireder my ball trjectory got lower. I've been striving to bend my front arm as close as I can to my rear shoulder, to get the power going but as I got weaker the ball got lower. Anyway I got to about 14, knackered 14 over fricken par and it occured to me that I'd slipped back into my conventional swing, with a semi straight lead arm. A quick re adjustment to the front arm was all it took. Next hole a 230 meter drive and a 120 meter pitch to the green and I was back in town. It's weird how the body wants to return to known methods...it's sneaky. It's like your body is conspiring against your wishes. Hang on, maybe that's the 6th key to golfing nirvana: NUMBER 6. Don't trust what your body is telling you.

[newtogolf]

You seem a bit angry logman, I don't think Erik is forcing his DVD's on anyone, they're out there and if you are interested buy them, if not, don't read any threads with the title 5Sk or 5 keys.  Last time I checked, no one had assigned you as speaker for all of the non-pro golfers.  I prefer my swing look like a pro's even if I don't have the flexibility and technique that pro's do.   Did you even take the time to read in detail what 5SK's was about or did you just decide to trash it because you want to promote LPG?

Originally Posted by logman

Man, it's like listening to a late night infomercial....It's the five easy steps show....staring Iacas as as the DVD salesman... Anyway, I had a hit today at one of the local municpals, had a bad round, I think I was tired after a big work week(or maybe I didn't keep my head still enough, Haha). But the thing that I noticed was that as my LPG swing got tireder and tireder my ball trjectory got lower. I've been striving to bend my front arm as close as I can to my rear shoulder, to get the power going but as I got weaker the ball got lower. Anyway I got to about 14, knackered 14 over fricken par and it occured to me that I'd slipped back into my conventional swing, with a semi straight lead arm. A quick re adjustment to the front arm was all it took. Next hole a 230 meter drive and a 120 meter pitch to the green and I was back in town. It's weird how the body wants to return to known methods...it's sneaky. It's like your body is conspiring against your wishes. Hang on, maybe that's the 6th key to golfing nirvana: NUMBER 6. Don't trust what your body is telling you.

[Phil McGleno]

So the thread is called 5 keys maybe not and I have yet to see you say anything to actually talk about why 'maybe not' or what the problem is with the keys except your crackpot theories about how amateurs should not try to swing like the guys who play the game the best.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by logman

Man, it's like listening to a late night infomercial....It's the five easy steps show....staring Iacas as as the DVD salesman... Anyway, I had a hit today at one of the local municpals, had a bad round, I think I was tired after a big work week(or maybe I didn't keep my head still enough, Haha). But the thing that I noticed was that as my LPG swing got tireder and tireder my ball trjectory got lower. I've been striving to bend my front arm as close as I can to my rear shoulder, to get the power going but as I got weaker the ball got lower. Anyway I got to about 14, knackered 14 over fricken par and it occured to me that I'd slipped back into my conventional swing, with a semi straight lead arm. A quick re adjustment to the front arm was all it took. Next hole a 230 meter drive and a 120 meter pitch to the green and I was back in town. It's weird how the body wants to return to known methods...it's sneaky. It's like your body is conspiring against your wishes. Hang on, maybe that's the 6th key to golfing nirvana: NUMBER 6. Don't trust what your body is telling you.

Actually, you sound like the late night infomercial.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Actually, you sound like the late night infomercial.

No you do!

[bunkerputt]

Logman, so is your point, "Don't do what pros do.  Do what second rate players do."  Because I think everybody is doing that already and it's not working.  That's why people are dissatisfied with second rate swing mechanics in the first place.

[logman]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Logman, so is your point, "Don't do what pros do.  Do what second rate players do."  Because I think everybody is doing that already and it's not working.  That's why people are dissatisfied with second rate swing mechanics in the first place.

Hi, no, There are plenty of things that the pros do that weekend golfers should do. Just about ALL elements of putting, some elements of chipping(though I hate seeing 60 degree wedges in bags instead of grandpa type chippers)but pretty much everything else the Pros do should be admired but not copied.

Your point about Everybody doing what the second rate players are doing is kind of perplexing. I would have thought everyone is trying to learn and perfect a swing that's the swing that the pros use. So the swing that I see everyone use in the "my swing" section here is a bunch of blokes trying their best to emulate the swings of their golf heroes supported by the coaches and the marketers. It seems to me to be the swing that everyone on this site asks Iacas and co to try to straighten out when one of the myriad of co-ordinations and moving parts goes awry .  I'll try and characterize it into the swing that's....Straight front arm, interlocking/overlapping grip, big torso turn, club release, wrist lag, lower body drive etc etc there are another 100 thjings that characterize the swing.....and I reckon that's the problem.....it's complicated, and any small grip problem, timing issue, tempo, weight transfer, squaring, casting.........(you get my point) can make things go wrong . Any one of 100 problems can turn the traditional swing into a frustrating impossible mess.

Just a point about my own game. I decided to look for something else after building a swing with more and more lag in it. Lags great isn't it? NO its not. It's the biggest load of bollocks out there. So I managed to get more and more lag and my swing speed got faster and the ball just flew....everywhere. And when you think about it it's not really surprising. How can a hacker playing of about 12 expect to square a clubface that goes from open to closed in 90 degrees of swing .....at full power.....on limited skill and with very limited practice time and expect to be consistent.

Bunkerputt, don't get me wrong, I'm completely in awe of the way pros can strike the ball, but it's a high risk, high return, high maintenance swing. And If you can do it, and do it consistently, well that's awesome, but I look at myself, my golf buddies,and just about everyone out on a Sunday and I think, I wonder if you're enjoying your game. If you could take just a couple of those variables out of your swing how much better would it be.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by logman

It seems to me to be the swing that everyone on this site asks Iacas and co to try to straighten out when one of the myriad of co-ordinations and moving parts goes awry .  I'll try and characterize it into the swing that's....Straight front arm, interlocking/overlapping grip, big torso turn, club release, wrist lag, lower body drive etc etc there are another 100 thjings that characterize the swing.....and I reckon that's the problem.....it's complicated, and any small grip problem, timing issue, tempo, weight transfer, squaring, casting.........(you get my point) can make things go wrong . Any one of 100 problems can turn the traditional swing into a frustrating impossible mess.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, it seems like you don't really know what or how we teach.  Erik or I have don't really believe in these generalities, " Straight front arm, interlocking/overlapping grip, big torso turn, club release, wrist lag, lower body drive etc", which is why we like to promote practical, correct information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman

And when you think about it it's not really surprising. How can a hacker playing of about 12 expect to square a clubface that goes from open to closed in 90 degrees of swing .....at full power.....on limited skill and with very limited practice time and expect to be consistent.

They can't and neither can you expect a professional golfer to have a square club face at impact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logman

If you could take just a couple of those variables out of your swing how much better would it be.

I very much agree, reason Dave, Chuck and Erik are trying to simplify things.  I get that you think we're peddlers but look at all the free information Erik and I provide and the time we put into really helping people.  And I can guarantee you I'm not getting rich by being in the golf business

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by logman

Bunkerputt, don't get me wrong, I'm completely in awe of the way pros can strike the ball, but it's a high risk, high return, high maintenance swing. And If you can do it, and do it consistently, well that's awesome, but I look at myself, my golf buddies,and just about everyone out on a Sunday and I think, I wonder if you're enjoying your game. If you could take just a couple of those variables out of your swing how much better would it be.

I played with a guy who took those "variables" out of his swing.  His drives went 150 yards perfectly straight and nearly straight up.  He was extremely frustrated with the game.  Are you saying that's better?  Because I think there are few who will agree with you.  You may as well be saying, "You suck, so don't bother trying to do anything better."  That's just sad, really.

[logman]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I played with a guy who took those "variables" out of his swing.  His drives went 150 yards perfectly straight and nearly straight up.  He was extremely frustrated with the game.  Are you saying that's better?  Because I think there are few who will agree with you.  You may as well be saying, "You suck, so don't bother trying to do anything better."  That's just sad, really.

I guess it depends on the variables you take out of your game.....and what you replace them with. It doesn't have to be a loss of overall power. That 40 kilogram Japanese lady that I invoked before might have improved her distance if she removed the traditional grip......and replaced it with a split grip.

Lag is one of those things that good amateur players always seem to be chasing trying to get that last 5 meters out of their swings. But I reckon it's a waste of time. sure it works but its akin to cracking a whip, where the snap at the last split second gives you the distance. But it also gives you an incredible timing problem. the results are inaccuracy.

I have NO lag in the swing I'm learning, I have straightness in my irons that I've never had before, I have No back pain(yeah!!!)......hopefully I can translate better ball striking into lower scoring when the good weather comes around.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by logman

No you do!

Well, you come on and berate another manner of instruction while promoting another.

You're an infomercial. You have bias, you are prejudiced to the manner in which you play.

You would have more credibility if you'd simply begun a thread saying I've found a way for me to play that helps me.

But no, you've got to slam someone else, and then tell people you'll never be good enough to approach a pro, so don't try.

Bollocks.

[Gresh24]

I thought this (Logman) was Patrick...

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Sure

Seriously though, if you're looking for swings, check out our youtube page and videos I recorded of players at the US Open

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSandTrapGolf/videos

Here's another pro in Doha wokin on keepin his head steady.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by logman

I have NO lag in the swing I'm learning, I have straightness in my irons that I've never had before...

That's what I'm talking about.  High launch, weak compression, complete lack of distance, but very straight, trying to get up and down from 50 yards on a 300 yard par-4 to save par every time.  That's a "way to play", just like taking your putter off the tee is a "way to play".  Good luck to you in your endeavor to sell that stuff.

[dak4n6]

I took a look at that LPG swing, and I don't think I could do it. Just cause you remove one pivot point (the wrist hinge) doesn't mean that it will be easy and automatic, especeially for me after all these years of conventional swinging.

And, it looks god awful fugly too.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

I took a look at that LPG swing, and I don't think I could do it. Just cause you remove one pivot point (the wrist hinge) doesn't mean that it will be easy and automatic, especeially for me after all these years of conventional swinging.

And, it looks god awful fugly too.

I also took a look at the LPG thing. Now in Logman's ORIGINAL post, he agreed with key #1) steady head. After looking at the LPG swing, it looks like the other 4 keys are also applied. There IS a weight shift onto the left side although not as pronounced as a conventional swing (key #2), the whole premise of this swing follows key #3 (flat left wrist) and keys 4&5 apply to anyone ever hitting a ball with a stick. Hit it on the sweetsopt and understand the swingpath and face angle will determine where the ball goes. So what is his big rant about these 5 keys not working???

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

I took a look at that LPG swing, and I don't think I could do it. Just cause you remove one pivot point (the wrist hinge) doesn't mean that it will be easy and automatic, especeially for me after all these years of conventional swinging.

And, it looks god awful fugly too.

I just checked it out too, here's the top of the backswing position he advocates.  His head moves quite a bit from his address position.  We also never get to see a swing of Jack's where he's actually hitting a ball.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I just checked it out too, here's the top of the backswing position he advocates.  His head moves quite a bit from his address position.  We also never get to see a swing of Jack's where he's actually hitting a ball.

I cannot possibly imagine how the average person could straighten his left arm from there without an extreme amount of athleticism.