Mizuno MP-63 vs Titleist AP2

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The bar and the face are forged, but the rest is cast and made of other materials.  There are a number of clubs that only have a forged face, pretty sure the TaylorMade MC's are forged face only as well.   It's not a traditional forged club like the Titleist CB, MB or the Mizuno MP-XX's.  I think the point Sean is making is that Titleist marketing knows that some golfers are looking for forged clubs so marketing the AP2's as a forged club and placing it in the same category as the CB's and MB's is a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adh241

So only the "bar" is forged?  The same "bar" that is attached to the face and made of the same material?  Last time I looked it was the face making contact with the ball.  If Titleist's marketing this as a forged club is BS perhaps you could enlighten the masses why its not? Or are you suggesting that because its a "multi-material players cavity back iron" it couldnt possibly be described as forged?

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I meant.

[adh241]

Yep, have to agree to disagree on that one, the bulk of the club is forged metal.  Yes its a cavity back & may have other materials (at the rear & sole of club) but the face is forged metal.  Can you only advertise a club as "forged" if its 100% forged metal?  Titleist website advertises/describes the AP2 as advanced performance, multi material irons.  At the end of the day I think its geared toward those who cant/dont want to play "blades" and fits the bill nicely.  I dont think Titleist place the AP2s in the same category as either the MB or CB irons, its just another product to offer and which also happens to have done pretty well for both the general public and many touring pros.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by adh241

Yes its a cavity back & may have other materials (at the rear & sole of club) but the face is forged metal.  Can you only advertise a club as "forged" if its 100% forged metal?

Most purists would say so.  Making the face forged but the rest of it cast is just a cheap way out and does hurt the feel to a certain extent.  TM does the same thing with their, "forged" irons.

[adh241]

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Most purists would say so.  Making the face forged but the rest of it cast is just a cheap way out and does hurt the feel to a certain extent.  TM does the same thing with their, "forged" irons.

Which "purists" are those?  The ones who make a comfortable living on various tours who play these irons?  Fair enough, the whole club is not made of forged steel (although the majority of it is), but these are hardly a "cheap way out".  The price tag and resale value disproves that theory. And which items on the club are cast?  If its just the steel sole I dont think you could say the rest of the club is cast.  Dont forget Titleist also offer the MB and CB irons so they dont need a "cheap way out".  As for feel, I play the AP2s & the feel is fantastic.  As a 5 handicapper I dont feel that I strike the ball well enough to go back to the "forged" (ie bladed) irons (I have tried them & grew up playing them) so I doubt the feel would be any better.  Maybe when I get a lot closer to scratch I'll give the forged blades a whirl, but until then I'm happy with the feel of my NOT FORGED AP2s.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by adh241

Which "purists" are those?  The ones who make a comfortable living on various tours who play these irons?  Fair enough, the whole club is not made of forged steel (although the majority of it is), but these are hardly a "cheap way out".  The price tag and resale value disproves that theory. And which items on the club are cast?  If its just the steel sole I dont think you could say the rest of the club is cast.  Dont forget Titleist also offer the MB and CB irons so they dont need a "cheap way out".  As for feel, I play the AP2s & the feel is fantastic.  As a 5 handicapper I dont feel that I strike the ball well enough to go back to the "forged" (ie bladed) irons (I have tried them & grew up playing them) so I doubt the feel would be any better.  Maybe when I get a lot closer to scratch I'll give the forged blades a whirl, but until then I'm happy with the feel of my NOT FORGED AP2s.

Purists are those who play forged irons and who dont appreciate companies who make a cast iron with a forged face and call it, "forged".  As for it being a cheap way out, its a cheap way out for Titleist and TM because they only have to forge the face and can use a cheaper manufacturing methoid (casting) on the rest of the clubhead.

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

[adh241]

Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by adh241

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Purists are those who play forged irons and who dont appreciate companies who make a cast iron with a forged face and call it, "forged".  As for it being a cheap way out, its a cheap way out for Titleist and TM because they only have to forge the face and can use a cheaper manufacturing methoid (casting) on the rest of the clubhead.

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

Maybe they could put a percentage in front of the word "forged" like they do with organic frozen dinners or orange juice.

"Titleist AP2" on the back and "65% Forged" on the hosel. win win

PS. It sounds like your head is on straight. My ORIGINAL comment was to the guy who was surprised how easy they were to hit considering they were forged. Really? Forged are as easy to hit as cast if they're the same head design.

[newtogolf]

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

Originally Posted by adh241

Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

This is correct.  This website is proof that there are quite a lot of golfers out there enamored by the word "forged" even if they don't exactly know what it means.  (It means the irons feel like butter and much better than cast ... just ask Shorty, he'll tell ya.)

And because Titleist certainly knows that, it's a little shady and somewhat false advertising of them to call it forged and not qualify it.

I like Sean's idea.  That would let us know that it's got the "magical forged pixie dust" in it, but at the same time, not try and lie to anyone who's unsuspecting.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

You continue to be as wrong about this as you always have.

But go on and keep deluding yourself into thinking the way an iron is created makes a difference. Irons "feel" different because they're different shapes and thus produce different sounds.

[xmanhockey7]

Both are great clubs. I play the AP2 and my girlfriend plays the MP-63 (she's a good player). From what I can tell the MP-63 would be more comparable to the Titleist CB. I find her MP-63 not as forgiving as my AP2 712 but then again I hate the shaft she has in it. I'd say hit 'em both. 63 does have a softer feel but unless you're a pretty good ball striker I'd go with the AP2s.

[adh241]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Maybe they could put a percentage in front of the word "forged" like they do with organic frozen dinners or orange juice.

"Titleist AP2" on the back and "65% Forged" on the hosel. win win

PS. It sounds like your head is on straight. My ORIGINAL comment was to the guy who was surprised how easy they were to hit considering they were forged. Really? Forged are as easy to hit as cast if they're the same head design.

100% agree with you on this.  Nice to be in accord.  I think people get confused between forged v cast and blade v game improvement.  A forged club does not have to be a blade etc.

[adh241]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

No,you have completely misunderstood my point.  I am completely aware of the differences between forged and cast, neither of which indicates the club is a blade.  My reference was to not wanting to play fully forged irons OR blades (not meaning they were one and the same).  Hope thats cleared up.  Where have I not acknowledged the difference between fully forged & the AP2?  Seems like my earlier posts referred to multi material etc.  Lets be really clear here so my point is not misunderstood, I dont think Titleist have deceived anyone by any advertising of the AP2.  If anyone is foolish enough to spend a grand on a set of clubs because it has "forged" stamped on it then we have a whole new level of stupidity. Is anyone actually stupid enough to look at the AP2 and consider the whole of the club to be forged?  No, and its not marketed as such IMO.

[mtnbiker5]

Anyone know when they might come out with a 2013 AP2?  Also, any thoughts on how the new Ping Answer's stack up against the AP2's, money aside.  They look beautiful.

[adh241]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

Actually, to be fair and accurate, I did earlier state "forged ie bladed".  My apologies for that, I do know better & that forged does NOT mean a club is a blade.  My original point, not very well illustrated, is that I do not believe Titleist have engaged in false or misleading advertising re the AP2s.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by adh241

... I dont think Titleist have deceived anyone by any advertising of the AP2.  If anyone is foolish enough to spend a grand on a set of clubs because it has "forged" stamped on it then we have a whole new level of stupidity. Is anyone actually stupid enough to look at the AP2 and consider the whole of the club to be forged?  No, and its not marketed as such IMO.

How could you say it's not marketed as such when it's got "forged" stamped right on it?

And considering that this site is full of avid golfers who probably know, collectively - (thanks Erik, et. al.), a lot more about golf than all of the non-TST (or equivalent) users out there, collectively, AND a lot of the people on here clearly have no clue what forged means - they just think its fancy - it's not any level of stupidity at all.  It's just a lack of information, some of which is being held back by Titleist by calling this club forged.

[Motley01]

Oh right? So you prefer Titleist to have a stamping on the head that says

"This face is forged, but not the entire head, we don't want to fool anybody with our claims"

I don't think this will fit on the head?

Get over it already. Part forged, full forged, whatever. Why all the nitpickers?

On Titleist webiste, this is exactly what is says in the description:

"Titleist AP2® irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer."

Now where does it claim to be the entire head is forged?

It clearly states MULTI-MATERIAL. And it FEELS LIKE A FORGED IRON.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Motley01

Oh right? So you prefer Titleist to have a stamping on the head that says

"This face is forged, but not the entire head, we don't want to fool anybody with our claims"

I don't think this will fit on the head?

Get over it already. Part forged, full forged, whatever. Why all the nitpickers?

On Titleist webiste, this is exactly what is says in the description:

"Titleist AP2® irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer."

Now where does it claim to be the entire head is forged?

It clearly states MULTI-MATERIAL. And it FEELS LIKE A FORGED IRON.

Sorry.  Honestly ... I'm not really sure why I jumped into this argument. I don't really even care.  I'll let adh and newtogolf go it alone from here on out.