PureStrike 5SK, Stack and Tilt, Etc.

[Beachcomber]

The statement Dave made on Key #5 - Clubface Control... I was a bit surprised TGM / Homer Kelley wasn't referenced, again.  I love Trackman and think it is an excellent tool.  But the mechanics of clubface control are tackled within TGM at length.  Whereas Trackman is simply a tool to monitor those mechanics detailed within TGM.

This is just a simple comment - and my opinion or response to the thread.  My end take is that I'm very appreciative of the analysis, time and research Dave & Chuck (and I'm sure dozens of others behind the scenes (Erik)) put in to making the 5SK system what it is today... An easy to communicate system to improving ones golf game.

And Dave - I really appreciate the Evolvr system, and what it has done for my own game (affordable instruction).  So I hope you and the team at Golf Evolution (Evolvr team included) have nothing but success.

Lastly, Chuck - have you actually seen Mac's cataloged work?  It's something a lot of golfers have talked about - and even on Mac's site - he states that after 21yrs of research, in 2006 he was going to publish a book.  But as we know, there is no such book that is readily available to the public.  Therefore, I also ask - if you have seen Mac's catalog of work - any idea or update as to when the MORAD folks are actually going to publish their 'catalog' system?  Just curious - and only bringing it up since the topic was broached here.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The statement Dave made on Key #5 - Clubface Control... I was a bit surprised TGM / Homer Kelley wasn't referenced, again.  I love Trackman and think it is an excellent tool.  But the mechanics of clubface control are tackled within TGM at length.  Whereas Trackman is simply a tool to monitor those mechanics detailed within TGM.

I disagree. If you're talking about 2-G I really disagree. TGM is showing its age. No doubt that Homer did a great job with the available tech he had, and that it'd still be a relevant book if he was alive today to update it, but it's long in the tooth and has some things wrong.

I will point out the obvious, though: Mac O'Grady, Andy and Mike, Dave, Me, Chuck (big duh there) are are fruits of the TGM tree. Some of us have rolled farther forward than others is all. ;)

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Lastly, Chuck - have you actually seen Mac's cataloged work?  It's something a lot of golfers have talked about - and even on Mac's site - he states that after 21yrs of research, in 2006 he was going to publish a book.  But as we know, there is no such book that is readily available to the public.  Therefore, I also ask - if you have seen Mac's catalog of work - any idea or update as to when the MORAD folks are actually going to publish their 'catalog' system?  Just curious - and only bringing it up since the topic was broached here.

It won't be published. Maybe someone will publish something after Mac dies or something, but I don't think he's publishing anything while he's alive.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree. If you're talking about 2-G I really disagree. TGM is showing its age. No doubt that Homer did a great job with the available tech he had, and that it'd still be a relevant book if he was alive today to update it, but it's long in the tooth and has some things wrong.

As you know Erik, I'm at the stage where I'm in the beginning of my journey of educating myself on the geometry and physics that truly make up the golf swing.  I haven't reached a point - and perhaps never will - which is advanced as yours. So I'm not sure what was published by TGM, that is now actually thought to be null and void.

But TGM addresses the hands/wrist/pressure points and power accumulators to manipulate both club shaft and face within the book at length.  And clubface control (Key 5), is highlighted in chapter 4 (wrist positions), 6 (power accumulator #3) and 2 (hinging) - to which Homer states has direct influence on the face of the club at impact.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

But TGM addresses the hands/wrist/pressure points and power accumulators to manipulate both club shaft and face within the book at length.  And clubface control (Key 5), is highlighted in chapter 4 (wrist positions), 6 (power accumulator #3) and 2 (hinging) - to which Homer states has direct influence on the face of the club at impact.

I'll send you a PM. Key #5 is just pointing the clubface in the right position for the shot and curve at hand. Hinge actions... not so relevant.

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by mchepp

I have not seen much of the criticism regarding the "copy" of S&T;, in fact most of what I have seen has been very positive. Saying something is a copy of S&T; is silly if only because S&T; has evolved itself, now S&T2.0;, or whatever they are calling it now.

It is never easy to put something out there. It is always easier to sit on the sidelines and throw peanuts from the peanut gallery. Once you have something out there, there will always be haters. You should be proud that you and your team are willing to put something out there and defend it.

Everyone here knows what I think of the pattern itself and, to allay any fears that some may have, it should be mentioned that the new DVD is, just that, a new DVD...with the addition of data to support findings, positions, etc.  The swing itself is the same and being taught the same.  Not saying that's bad, and some would call it good, but a change in philosophy or the method of instruction is not what the "2.0" represents.

[Bo the Golfer]

Just wanted to send a thank you for all the information you guys put forward. I have been out of work for a few months so spending the $$ on the DVD wouldn't go over real well with the wife but it will be one of the first things I treat myself to when able. The passion you all have for the golf swing and sharing that information comes through on almost every post. Keep it up as for guys like myself it is how I am able to try and improve my swing on my own.

[Chuck Evans]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The statement Dave made on Key #5 - Clubface Control... I was a bit surprised TGM / Homer Kelley wasn't referenced, again.  I love Trackman and think it is an excellent tool.  But the mechanics of clubface control are tackled within TGM at length.  Whereas Trackman is simply a tool to monitor those mechanics detailed within TGM.

This is just a simple comment - and my opinion or response to the thread.  My end take is that I'm very appreciative of the analysis, time and research Dave & Chuck (and I'm sure dozens of others behind the scenes (Erik)) put in to making the 5SK system what it is today... An easy to communicate system to improving ones golf game.

And Dave - I really appreciate the Evolvr system, and what it has done for my own game (affordable instruction).  So I hope you and the team at Golf Evolution (Evolvr team included) have nothing but success.

Lastly, Chuck - have you actually seen Mac's cataloged work?  It's something a lot of golfers have talked about - and even on Mac's site - he states that after 21yrs of research, in 2006 he was going to publish a book.  But as we know, there is no such book that is readily available to the public.  Therefore, I also ask - if you have seen Mac's catalog of work - any idea or update as to when the MORAD folks are actually going to publish their 'catalog' system?  Just curious - and only bringing it up since the topic was broached here.

As far as TGM and clubface control, hinging is only part of it.  Mr. Kelley DID say, long before anyone else, that the ball will start at practically right angles to the leading edge of the clubface.  He never said it would start 100% to the leading edge.  Isn't that essentially what Trackman tells us?

Another piece that gets over looked, even by those supposedly in the know about the book, is the fact that Mr. Kelley discusses - briefly - the D-Plane, without calling it that.  First paragraph 2-N-0...clubhead line of flight.

[JetFan1983]

Stack and tilt is a push draw pattern, but just change some attachments to play a fade with it. Whether you're five keys or stack and tilt, the lesson process with most amateurs is the same. I guessed each fix you and Chuck gave the students in your DVD because I've had multiple lessons with Steve Sieracki, Lainey Gunning, and Dave Quinn. I practice at the S&T; academy regularly, so I constantly get to observe lessons and clinics. The goal is the same: find the priority piece or pieces, and explain that to the student so they can understand. Increase the explanation if they still don't understand thru better language, video, feel suggestions, or just straight up holding them and making the movements for them. Now, you guys might disagree on the priority piece of a good player, and I think that's where the differences start to show -- besides theoretical stuff like weight location on the backswing. Is five keys S&T;? No, but the lesson process with amateur players is very much the same. You go get a S&T; lesson and you'll see the same efficiency with their students. You'll see that the lesson process in-person throws the books and pencils out the window and you just get the exact thing you need to work on (and of course, I know you, Dave, are S&T; authorized and the respect you have for it. I meant more the general "you"). The most common problems and some of their fixes, which I assume is 100% agreed upon by both philosophies: 1. Flipping -- chip drill, flat wrist, or feel arched/palmar flexed in certain situations, elbows together, straight arms, half swings for the majority of all fixes 2. No hip slide -- multiple fixes for this, like ankle rolling, more weight forward at setup, introduce feet flare out, change stance width if that is an issue 3. Excessive shoulder rotation -- likely needs more hip slide, close shoulders at address 4. Hips sliding back on backswing -- more weight forward at setup. 5. Arm lifting -- more hand depth, tees under armpits drill (same if arms detach from body on through swing) 6. Forearm rolling on backswing and the club getting behind you -- more Ricky fowler 7. Trail arm bending beyond 90 degrees -- feel straight trail arm the whole time 8. Arms retracting on downswing -- a) feel straight arms the whole time b) hit punch shots c) squeeze elbows together d) more wrist arch can help too 9. head dipping on backswing -- wall drill, more extension, spine straightening 10. Shoulders too flat on backswing -- shoulder turns steeper and more downward, wall drill, straighten trail leg 11. Losing inclination to the ground on downswing -- more hip slide, wall drill, maybe feel like you are increasing tilt, hit punch shots 12. Early extension -- more hip slide, stay in tilt, wall drill 13. No extension and flipping -- seems like the most common problem; use chip drill feeling hip slide and an arched wrist 14. Too much wrist arch, handle getting too high -- feel more flipping, losing the wedge, or explaining to the student that the handle can't keep rising because the path goes too far in to out. (generally feel the opposite of what you do naturally. Like all sliding and no rotation if you are all rotation) So is it mostly on the highest levels of sophistication where the two sides can begin to disagree? Or do you believe that 5sK instructors are better equipped to find the student's priority piece and not make a mistake? Because S&T; teachers certainly aren't infallible. As I've said many times already, Five Keys is great and the DVDs are too. But since this thread exists, it's my chance to share my thoughts on 5sK and S&T.; And I know the 5sK guys have an enormous respect for S&T;, so this isn't meant to be read as some kind of confrontational or argumentative post. It's just my observations of both methods in action. Thanks for reading. I look forward to continue learning more stuff from you guys as time goes by, and I'm very likely to get a lesson or two from Mario Bevelaqua in Colts Neck, NJ sometime very soon :-)

[iacas]

JetFan, we (5SK) are being called names, attacked, asked if we've "copied" or "stolen" S&T;, etc. in certain places. Dave's post is simply a response to that. He posted it here because it's the safest place he can put it where it won't be deleted by someone.

I'll send you a PM, but publicly all I'll say right now is this.

1. Everything you listed is how a good instructor would teach any golf swing.
2. We can still obviously teach the S&T; swing. We feel, however, that we've "evolved" well beyond teaching only that one swing.
3. We've done a LOT of research. We've investigated a TON of stuff, re-thought, re-checked, re-verified, experimented, etc. We will continue to do so.
4. We took the words "S&T;" off the Golf Evolution site, despite being the first "academy" that taught it, in 2010. We haven't suddenly and recently begun evolving.
5. Despite #4 and everything else, I've still said S&T; is a great swing to learn. It's a great foundation, and for 80%+ of golfers, they can get better with the "ten words." I still think everyone should read and understand the book, etc. I've done more to support S&T; than virtually anyone.

[JetFan1983]

I rewatched the DVD tonight and there are numerous unique interpretations, drills, and approaches towards presenting the material. Clearly there is a lot of overlap with S&T;, but much of it explains the mechanics and how to achieve them in a new way. A very useful DVD. I also read the Facebook thread that somewhat inspired the OP, and now understand where this is coming from. Keep up the good work 5Keys and Golf Evolution.

[lewisgl]

I am just starting to try to figure out what purestrike 5SK is all about.  What are the similarities and differences between Stack and Tilt and 5SK?  I have to say that the 5SK principles sound pretty good to me.  I have used Stack and Tilt for most of he last 18 months and it has worked fairly well except that I probably get too much head movement.  I think I force the left shoulder down a little too much, which causes the head to go down and maybe forward and that seems to cause some problems with the rest of the swing. .  The fact that 5SK stresses a steady head is very likeable.   The question for me is how much does one have to try to force the left shoulder to go down in the backswing?   I find that it goes down somewhat naturally because of the stance and posture at address and if I don't force it the head can stay pretty steady. .

[cipher]

I am just starting to try to figure out what purestrike 5SK is all about.  What are the similarities and differences between Stack and Tilt and 5SK?

Stack and Tilt is a swing method, it fits within' the five keys.  The 5 Simple Keys are just commonalities all that great golfers have.  It is not a swing method like Stack and Tilt is per say.  There are just five things that all great golfers have in common and they allow for many different swings.

[cipher]

The question for me is how much does one have to try to force the left shoulder to go down in the backswing?   I find that it goes down somewhat naturally because of the stance and posture at address and if I don't force it the head can stay pretty steady. .

Exactly right, it should stem from having a good poture to start with.  It should almost be an automatic with the right posture.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/56069/good-golf-posture

[Ernest Jones]

I am just starting to try to figure out what purestrike 5SK is all about.  What are the similarities and differences between Stack and Tilt and 5SK?  I have to say that the 5SK principles sound pretty good to me.  I have used Stack and Tilt for most of he last 18 months and it has worked fairly well except that I probably get too much head movement.  I think I force the left shoulder down a little too much, which causes the head to go down and maybe forward and that seems to cause some problems with the rest of the swing. .  The fact that 5SK stresses a steady head is very likeable.   The question for me is how much does one have to try to force the left shoulder to go down in the backswing?   I find that it goes down somewhat naturally because of the stance and posture at address and if I don't force it the head can stay pretty steady. .

Stack and Tilt is a swing method, it fits within' the five keys.  The 5 Simple Keys are just commonalities all that great golfers have.  It is not a swing method like Stack and Tilt is per say.  There are just five things that all great golfers have in common and they allow for many different swings.

SnT is a swing method. 5sk is a teaching method.

The 5sk method can be used to teach SnT or any other usable pattern. The Snt method can be used to teach SnT.

[lewisgl]

I only heard about 5K about a week ago and am glad to have found this thread.    Mr.  Wedzik's comments really cleared things up for me.  Thank you.   Golf teaching is continuing to evolve and improve,because of guys like you, who are willing to try to come up with new ideas to try to  help golfers figure things out better.   Kudos!

[lewisgl]

Thanks for the information.   I also found Dave Wedzik's posts in another thread that explains what 5SK is all about and it really cleared things up for me very well.

[mvmac]

The question for me is how much does one have to try to force the left shoulder to go down in the backswing?   I find that it goes down somewhat naturally because of the stance and posture at address and if I don't force it the head can stay pretty steady.

Honestly I don't know.  Feels vary from player to player.  If you've been doing S&T; for a while, chances are the left shoulder going down is pretty automatic by now.  We tend to see S&T; students that over do it, head starts to move down and forward on the backswing.  "Feels" become reality.  I can tell you the left shoulder basically ends up under your chin at the top of the backswing.  You said you saw Dave's video on Key #1, that's a great description of making a functional backswing.

The head being steady is a result of a couple things, we rarely even actually focus on the head when working on Key#1.  The focus of what those pieces are can vary because each student has their own issues.  We don't do, "this is how you make a backswing" and get everyone to replicate the same motion.  Not saying this is what S&T; does, just thinking of some hardcore method swings I've seen.

Stack and Tilt is a swing method, it fits within' the five keys.  The 5 Simple Keys are just commonalities all that great golfers have.  It is not a swing method like Stack and Tilt is per say.  There are just five things that all great golfers have in common and they allow for many different swings.

Yes well said, S&T; is a swing pattern, done well it satisfies all 5 Keys.  Just as a Leadbetter swing, Jim Hardy swing, Mac O'Grady swing, all done properly will fit into the 5 Keys system.

To all you 5SK instructors can you recommend an instructor in my area for my son and I?

I live in Whitter, it is about 20 min north of Disneyland.

Please PM me if you could with a name, number and cost.

I'll send you a PM

[taxgolf]

A nice thread. Somewhat strange reading for a person living outside the good old USA.

To give you an idea. You are talking about differences in a teaching system (as I think I can discribe it) versus the total lack of knowledge in my country. I frequently meet teaching pro's who sometimes have read 'something' about S&T; let alone 5sk. The only thing they can mumble is it is a swing in which you stay on the left side, with overlooking all the positives. They keep hangin in the past, like rolling the wrists, keeping the knees bend etc. and everything else that comes with teachers who do not invest in themselves to evolve.

S&T; to me is easier to remember. It gives me great explanation. I have to work and think to bring elements of 5sk into my swing. But I find great joy in reading al sorts of explanations by MvMac and/or Iacas, let alone the great clips. Reading this sort of discussions remembers me how far behind we are in my country. I wish there would be a discussion about differences in my country. That would possibly means that we have teachers ready to take golf at a higher level.