Mac O'Grady Swings

[Yff Theos]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm standing by "vastly over-rated." He barely got to the PGA Tour at a time when the fields were still relatively thin. The PGA Tour is a ballstriker's tour. Thus, you could pretty reasonably conclude he's nowhere near the top 100 ball strikers that ever lived (he was arguably not within the top 100 ball strikers in the world during the years he missed the PGA Tour…), while some would probably put him in the top five or ten.

That's "vastly overstated" IMO.

You're simply wrong. What's vastly overrated are perhaps Mac's achievements and here I do agree 100%. As I told you before, the very swing (although unreally good) is not responsible alone for the results. Someone said Hogan would have won more majors than Jack if he had his caddie putting for him. As regards the very swing, O'Grady's one is one of the best ever, it is hard to find someone who can sniff how to play well that denies it.

 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your trail foot doesn't have to be back to have your knees parallel to the baseline.

No, it has to be because of the more flex in the trail knee which is obvious at address. It is a simple geometry.

 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

The word you used, "level," is a "horizontal" type word. It means two things are at equal heights. You meant to say "parallel" and then to add to what: "parallel to the baseline."

OK, will remember for the future this nuance. Thank you.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Yff Theos said:

You're simply wrong.

It's an opinion, so no… not possible. Nor can I be right. It's just my opinion. But I can back it up, too.

1 minute ago, Yff Theos said:

As I told you before, the very swing (although unreally good) is not responsible alone for the results.

It's the bulk of it, though. The PGA Tour is a ball-striker's tour, and the fact of the matter is that Mac could barely make it (once) back in a time when the talent was much more diluted than it is now. Boo Weekley is likely a much better ballstriker than Mac O'Grady. Virtually every PGA Tour player right now is probably a better ballstriker than Mac was in his day.

1 minute ago, Yff Theos said:

As regards the very swing, O'Grady's one is one of the best ever, it is hard to find someone who can sniff how to play well that denies it.

I play well. I teach well too. So does Mike. We will both tell you his ballstriking is over-rated.

@david_wedzik had status on what is now the Web.com Tour. He'll tell you, too.

1 minute ago, Yff Theos said:

No, it has to be because of the more flex in the trail knee which is obvious at address. It is a simple geometry.

@Yff Theos, for pete's sake, put your knees against a wall and you'll find a TON of ways you can orient your feet, hips, knees, etc. and have your knees still touching the wall and, thus, parallel to the baseline that would be parallel to that wall.

It's simple geometry. I agree, which makes it all the more frustrating why you aren't getting it. There's a wide range of acceptable address positions.

[Yff Theos]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's an opinion, so no… not possible. Nor can I be right. It's just my opinion. But I can back it up, too.

Please, do.

 

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

The PGA Tour is a ball-striker's tour

It is mainly a putter's and longhitter's tour nowadays, imo.

 

22 minutes ago, iacas said:

I play well. I teach well too. So does Mike. We will both tell you his ballstriking is over-rated.

On what basis? I told you that you cannot rate ballstriking based on results only. Show me Mac's stats such as FIR, avg. drive length, GIR. This would be decisive, not his stroke results. Hogan could end with 100% FIR and GIR with a decent length off the tee and lose the tournament because of lousy putting.

 

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

put your knees against a wall and you'll find a TON of ways you can orient your feet, hips, knees, etc. and have your knees still touching the wall and, thus, parallel to the baseline that would be parallel to that wall.

Push your feet to touch the wall with the big toes, then perform the primary axis tilt as in address. Then flex both knees and notice which one touch the wall AS THE FIRST. It will be the trail knee. Therefore, you would need to retract the trail foot to make both knees touch the wall at the same time.

It is me who is tired of your ignorance in this point.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Please, do.

I've given you enough of a taste. That he couldn't make the PGA Tour is a big part of it.

9 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

It is mainly a putter's and longhitter's tour nowadays, imo.

No, it's not. It's a ball striker's tour, just as it pretty much always has been.

9 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

On what basis? I told you that you cannot rate ballstriking based on results only. Show me Mac's stats such as FIR, avg. drive length, GIR. This would be decisive, not his stroke results. Hogan could end with 100% FIR and GIR with a decent length off the tee and lose the tournament because of lousy putting.

This is not worth discussing, because you're so far behind in a bunch of stuff regarding scoring in golf, that it'd take far too long to get into it.

Ballstriking reigns supreme. My daughter would easily keep her PGA Tour card if you gave her 100% GIR on the PGA Tour. That golfer would have so many strokes gained from tee to green you'd have to find a truly terrible putter to give them all away.

You're out of your depth here.

Goodness. Mac's ballstriking was over-rated. He was barely one of the top 100 ball strikers in his day, so there's no way in hell he's among the top 10 of all time. That's ridiculous.

9 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Push your feet to touch the wall with the big toes, then perform the primary axis tilt as in address. Then flex both knees and notice which one touch the wall AS THE FIRST. It will be the trail knee. Therefore, you would need to retract the trail foot to make both knees touch the wall at the same time.

I can make whichever knee I want touch first, or have them touch both at the same time. How I tilt my spine or hips has very little influence on my knees, or the rates at which I flex them to get them into a setup.

Read what's written.You can put your damn knees on the wall - thus making them parallel - and arrange your body in all SORTS of ways. Furthermore, great players have played great golf without their knees parallel to the baseline.

You're insisting on one model, and it's a disservice to you and anyone you try to teach.

 You're being lazy. You're looking for ONE swing to teach to everyone. That's not how golf works. Put in the time, put in the effort. Or don't; I don't really care.

[Yff Theos]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I've given you enough of a taste. That he couldn't make the PGA Tour is a big part of it.

He could. And he is a PGA Tour winner.

 

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, it's not. It's a ball striker's tour, just as it pretty much always has been.

It was my opinion, so, quoting yourself, it's an opinion, so I can be right or wrong. It's just my opinion. But I can back it up, too.

 

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

This is not worth discussing, because you're so far behind in a bunch of stuff regarding scoring in golf, that it'd take far too long to get into it.

Insulting people does not make you look wiser. Quite the opposite, dude.

 

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can put your damn knees on the wall - thus making them parallel - and arrange your body in all SORTS of ways.

Examples, please.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

It was my opinion, so, quoting yourself, it's an opinion, so I can be right or wrong. It's just my opinion. But I can back it up, too.

That the PGA Tour is a ball-striker's tour isn't really an opinion. It's just about a fact. You can't survive on the PGA Tour being a bad ballstriker. You can survive being a bad putter, or not having the best short game.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Insulting people does not make you look wiser. Quite the opposite, dude.

Thanks! Not an insult; just the truth.

I've learned to recognize, after giving someone a LOT of benefit of the doubt, when someone is beyond the point where they've demonstrated that they're simply close-minded, and never going to open up their minds to consider something anew, or learn. You're there. You're shut off. You, despite multiple people with a lot more Mac experience than you have telling you different, are full steam ahead down a bad road (apologies for the mixed metaphor). Good luck.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Examples, please.

Put in the time and effort yourself. I'm done.

There are numerous:

• ways that you can set up so that your knees are parallel to the target line (or baseline).
• ways that you can set up and hit successful, good golf shots that have your knees pointing left of or right of the baseline or target line.

There's no one good way to swing a golf club. You're being lazy.

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Push your feet to touch the wall with the big toes, then perform the primary axis tilt as in address. Then flex both knees and notice which one touch the wall AS THE FIRST. It will be the trail knee. Therefore, you would need to retract the trail foot to make both knees touch the wall at the same time.

I just tried this. You know what I learned? You can't get into address with your toes on a wall because there's a wall in front of you.

I then did this in my kitchen on a cabinet. No issue getting my knees parallel. Actually, my knees don't touch the cabinet when I get into address at all, since they line up over the balls of my feet and not my toes. 

If my trail knee is ahead of my lead, it's by a fraction of an inch. Doubt that has a significant impact on my swing. 

12 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Examples, please.

With all due respect, @iacas shares plenty of information here. This is your claim, the onus is on you to prove it.

[Yff Theos]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

That the PGA Tour is a ball-striker's tour isn't really an opinion. It's just about a fact. You can't survive on the PGA Tour being a bad ballstriker.

So, perhaps we should've started with the definition of a ballstriker. According to my definition (which is placing the ball mostly where I want) there is a helluva lot of not great ballstrikers on tour. In the terms of comparing to amators, all of them are excellent ballstrikers. Comparing to my definition: only very few.

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thanks! Not an insult; just the truth.

No, it is not any truth in the sense of truth. It can be your truth though.

 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

There are numerous:

• ways that you can set up so that your knees are parallel to the target line (or baseline).
• ways that you can set up and hit successful, good golf shots that have your knees pointing left of or right of the baseline or target line.

There's no one good way to swing a golf club. You're being lazy.

No, I am not lazy. I just want you to show me these multiple ways of setting parallel knees IN A GOLF SWING ADDRESS. I can see that the relation between knees and feet position is reciprocal or you perform an odd stance that cannot be called a golf adress stance. That's all.

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

I just tried this. You know what I learned? You can't get into address with your toes on a wall because there's a wall in front of you.

 

Try with no spine flex forward.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

So, perhaps we should've started with the definition of a ballstriker. According to my definition (which is placing the ball mostly where I want) there is a helluva lot of not great ballstrikers on tour. In the terms of comparing to amators, all of them are excellent ballstrikers. Comparing to my definition: only very few.

Oy.

If you can place the ball mostly where you want, then again… Mac wasn't one of the best. Golf is a VERY EASY game if you can "place the ball mostly where you want." Yet Mac couldn't make the PGA Tour, what, 17 times back when the game was far more diluted than it is now?

No.

Only a few PGA Tour players are excellent ball strikers? Ha ha ha ha. Okay.

I'm gonna put an end to that conversation. It's going nowhere.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

No, I am not lazy. I just want you to show me these multiple ways of setting parallel knees IN A GOLF SWING ADDRESS. I can see that the relation between knees and feet position is reciprocal or you perform an odd stance that cannot be called a golf adress stance. That's all.

Again, there are numerous:

• ways that you can set up in what everyone would call a golf stance so that your knees are parallel to the target line (or baseline).
• ways that you can set up in what everyone would call a golf stance and hit successful, good golf shots that have your knees pointing left of or right of the baseline or target line.

BTW, I just talked to a renowned Mac expert. He said the reason Mac took his trail foot and pulled it back a little was to  shift the baseline slightly to the right, so that when you hit up slightly with the driver, you could zero it out. Kinda like Hogan.

In other words, the baseline of the plane was actually right of the wall and thus not parallel to the wall at all. Mac didn't care about his knees being parallel to the target line. He was simply shifting the baseline a bit right so he could hit it pretty straight overall.

[billchao]

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

So, perhaps we should've started with the definition of a ballstriker. According to my definition (which is placing the ball mostly where I want) there is a helluva lot of not great ballstrikers on tour. In the terms of comparing to amators, all of them are excellent ballstrikers. Comparing to my definition: only very few.

I'm not buying it. If Mac was one of the best ballstrikers in his day, he would have won majors. You said Hogan lost tournaments due to his lousy putting, but his ballstriking made him a HoFer.

Mac struggled to even make the tour.

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Try with no spine flex forward.

That's not a golf address stance. Everything shifts when I forward bend. Standing in an odd position I wouldn't be playing golf in proves nothing.

[Yff Theos]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

If you can place the ball mostly where you want, then again… Mac wasn't one of the best.

..........................................................

Only a few PGA Tour players are excellent ball strikers? Ha ha ha ha. Okay.

Mac was a PGA Tour player. According to you, each of them is an excellent ballstriker.

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

BTW, I just talked to a renowned Mac expert. He said the reason Mac took his trail foot and pulled it back a little was to  shift the baseline slightly to the right, so that when you hit up slightly with the driver, you could zero it out. Kinda like Hogan.

I assume you put your conversation with an anonymous friend of yours over what was publicly stated by McCord, who was closer to Mac than all your friends combined? Heh.

 

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

That's not a golf address stance. Everything shifts when I forward bend. Standing in an odd position I wouldn't be playing golf in proves nothing.

Yes it is, but without upper body flex that would change nothing. Lower part of the body is in the stance of golf.

 

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm not buying it. If Mac was one of the best ballstrikers in his day, he would have won majors

Why examples of Weekleys of todays as one of best ballstrikers then? Besides, as I said before, Mac is my hero as the teaching master and inventor, not as player or ballstriker. There are lots of examples on this forum where you ridicule major winners as teachers. Hypocrits at best.

 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Mac was a PGA Tour player. According to you, each of them is an excellent ballstriker.

Eventually he was. So, yes, he was roughly one of the top 100 or so ball strikers for a year or two. Thousands have played the PGA Tour and had longer careers than he had. Thus, again, his ballstriking is over-rated.

But since you seem to have missed it before, that line of conversation ends here. It's going nowhere.

5 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I assume you put your conversation with an anonymous friend of yours over what was publicly stated by McCord, who was closer to Mac than all your friends combined? Heh.

Dude, you don't know who my friends are. Gary McCord was out of Mac's circle a long time ago. Brendan Kennedy was in Mac's circle more recently. Hell, Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer were in Mac's circle more recently. Even Mike Bender was in Mac's circle more recently.

The guy I talked to is way deeper into Mac's circle than Gary McCord. @mvmac knows who I talked to. So does @billchao. They'll attest that what I'm saying here is accurate.

Hell, for that matter, I've been in Mac's circle more recently than Gary McCord.

And what did this person tell me about the trail foot? Oh… that it had nothing to do with the alignment of the knees, and that the knees were in fact NOT parallel to the baseline.

---

I've sought out a lot of information for a lot of years. I've talked with people, had dinner with people, worked with, given lessons with, given lessons to, received lessons from… Mac people, far and wide. Some were still in his circle. Some had been kicked out of his circle multiple times. I know a good bit of Mac stuff myself, and have a network of very "Mac-knowledgeable" people I can reach out to.

I'm not some random ignorant Mac-hater, though if you want to tell yourself that as a way of dismissing what I have to say about your approach to teaching, by all means…

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I assume you put your conversation with an anonymous friend of yours over what was publicly stated by McCord, who was closer to Mac than all your friends combined? Heh.

You're barking up the wrong tree if you want to play this game. @iacas, @mvmac, and their friends (was going to say peers, but Mike doesn't teach anymore) have personal experience with Mac. Do you?

6 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Yes it is, but without upper body flex that would change nothing. Lower part of the body is in the stance of golf.

I'm just not seeing it. If I stand parallel to a wall and bend my knees, my knees are parallel. If I side bend real hard, causing my pelvis to tilt, then the knees shift, but this excessive amount of axis tilt is not actually an address posture. Once I remove most of the axis tilt to a normal amount, my knees are parallel again.

Like I said, if my trail knee is in front of my lead knee, it's by a fraction of an inch. Imperceptible. I don't see it and they're directly under me; it's not going to show on video.

11 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Why examples of Weekleys of todays as one of best ballstrikers then?

Nobody said that.

16 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Besides, as I said before, Mac is my hero as the teaching master and inventor, not as player or ballstriker.

Okay, here's my take:

Mac is your hero. That's fine. But it's 2017 and golf instruction has moved on well past Mac himself. He can still be your hero, but you don't seem to understand that his information isn't the cutting edge anymore.

That's like an inventor admiring Thomas Edison and studying only his original works while disregarding all the advancements others have made on them. It doesn't make any sense, man.

[Yff Theos]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not some random ignorant Mac-hater, though if you want to tell yourself that as a way of dismissing what I have to say about your approach to teaching, by all means…

No, you are not. You honestly are one hell of a passionate dude whom current golf teaching needs. You have lots of accolades who stand behind you even when you're wrong. It's a treasure. However, you are sometimes annoying and oversstimating yourself, but I prefer this than the bullshit attitude of other fora. Moreover, I can only dream of your experiences and contacts with important guys. But it seems you hide a grudge to Mac, prolly because he kicked you (and Mike) out  somewhere. It is my prediction only, I am not a psychologist. That's why you negate Mac's impact as well as impact of older generation.

And I can assure you, Tigers and Rorys of today would watch such Hogan in awe with open mouth hit balls on the range, despite all enormous advantages science brings today

10 minutes ago, billchao said:

You're barking up the wrong tree if you want to play this game. @iacas, @mvmac, and their friends (was going to say peers, but Mike doesn't teach anymore) have personal experience with Mac. Do you?

Nope. But I am too old for "an expert friend who prefers to remain anonymous" arguments.

 

11 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm just not seeing it. If I stand parallel to a wall and bend my knees, my knees are parallel. If I side bend real hard, causing my pelvis to tilt, then the knees shift, but this excessive amount of axis tilt is not actually an address posture. Once I remove most of the axis tilt to a normal amount, my knees are parallel again.

Like I said, if my trail knee is in front of my lead knee, it's by a fraction of an inch. Imperceptible. I don't see it and they're directly under me; it's not going to show on video.

It is not rocket science.

1) stand erect close enough to the wall so that the toes of your feet touch the wall (and your knees do not because they are not flexed);

2) without changing anything just bend your spine laterally as you create primary axis tilt;

3) now flex your knees simultaneously just to see that it is your trail knee that touches the wall as the first;

4) try to adjust the trail feet position so that your both knees touch the wall at the same time.

Gotcha?

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

No, you are not. You honestly are one hell of a passionate dude whom current golf teaching needs. You have lots of accolades who stand behind you even when you're wrong. It's a treasure. However, you are sometimes annoying and oversstimating yourself, but I prefer this than the bullshit attitude of other fora. Moreover, I can only dream of your experiences and contacts with important guys. But it seems you hide a grudge to Mac, prolly because he kicked you (and Mike) out  somewhere. It is my prediction only, I am not a psychologist. That's why you negate Mac's impact as well as impact of older generation.

You're way off base and I'd suggest you avoid making assumptions about things you don't know about other people.

2 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Nope. But I am too old for "an expert friend who prefers to remain anonymous" arguments.

Again, you're making assumptions. I know these people, too. Some people don't like going around name dropping and respect others enough not to drag them into discussions they're not directly a part of.

4 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

It is not rocket science.

1) stand erect close enough to the wall so that the toes of your feet touch the wall (and your knees do not because they are not flexed);

2) without changing anything just bend your spine laterally as you create primary axis tilt;

3) now flex your knees simultaneously just to see that it is your trail knee that touches the wall as the first;

4) try to adjust the trail feet position so that your both knees touch the wall at the same time.

Gotcha?

Ok this is the third time I'm typing this out, so I'll just quote it, instead:

21 minutes ago, billchao said:

Like I said, if my trail knee is in front of my lead knee, it's by a fraction of an inch. Imperceptible. I don't see it and they're directly under me; it's not going to show on video.

 

1 hour ago, billchao said:

If my trail knee is ahead of my lead, it's by a fraction of an inch. Doubt that has a significant impact on my swing. 

If you really think lining up your knees is some kind of requirement to having a good swing, you should tell that to all the PGA Tour players out there that don't line up parallel to their base line. You're over-stating the importance of one tiny detail of setup that ceases to exist the moment you start moving, anyway.

[iacas]

Just now, Yff Theos said:

No, you are not. You honestly are one hell of a passionate dude whom current golf teaching needs. You have lots of accolades who stand behind you even when you're wrong.

I don't think you've shown me to be wrong on anything yet.

I do think I've shown you to be wrong about the knees thing, but whatever.

Just now, Yff Theos said:

It's a treasure. However, you are sometimes annoying and oversstimating yourself, but I prefer this than the bullshit attitude of other fora. Moreover, I can only dream of your experiences and contacts with important guys. But it seems you hide a grudge to Mac, prolly because he kicked you (and Mike) out  somewhere. It is my prediction only, I am not a psychologist. That's why you negate Mac's impact as well as impact of older generation.

You're wrong. I never tried to get "in" with Mac, and so he never kicked me "out." I couldn't care less about being "in" a circle or out of a circle, except the circles I define myself.

No "grudge" at all. Seriously, none, and the long-time members here who know me would attest to that. @mvmac would attest to it.

I just think that doing things the Mac way is only ONE way to do it. I think the world of golf instruction has left Mac behind. We know more than he does. Hell, I've got a SwingCatalyst, a SAM PuttLab, I wrote high-speed video analysis software, I've played around with GEARS, I've repped for FlightScope. K-Vest. MySwing. I have more toys than he ever did.

Your prediction is off-target.

I think trying to teach everybody one swing is a lazy way to go about teaching golf. I think that even if you were to go down that road, there are better swings to teach than Mac's, which changes frequently and often to suit his eye, not for any practical reason.

I've said all of that before. It's really that simple.

Just now, Yff Theos said:

And I can assure you, Tigers and Rorys of today would watch such Hogan in awe with open mouth hit balls on the range, despite all enormous advantages science brings today

Cool. So?

BTW, Hogan would have watched Tiger in awe, too.

Just now, Yff Theos said:

Nope. But I am too old for "an expert friend who prefers to remain anonymous" arguments.

He didn't ask to remain anonymous. I did that, because I don't need you pulling him into the steaming pile of shit that this conversation has become.

@billchao can attest to who he is. So can @mvmac. So could Brendan Kennedy. Dude, my "friends" in golf instruction are Mac people. Stop. You're making yourself look foolish, now.

Cripes, did you see the picture of the hard disk I have with the Mac videos I've got? C'mon.

Just now, Yff Theos said:

It is not rocket science.

Right, which makes it all the more frustrating that you're not getting it.

Mac didn't retract his back foot to make his knees parallel to the baseline. The baseline was oriented to the right.

Just now, Yff Theos said:

1) stand erect close enough to the wall so that the toes of your feet touch the wall (and your knees do not because they are not flexed);

2) without changing anything just bend your spine laterally as you create primary axis tilt;

3) now flex your knees simultaneously just to see that it is your trail knee that touches the wall as the first;

4) try to adjust the trail feet position so that your both knees touch the wall at the same time.

Gotcha?

Here's what you're not getting… I can do those things, and in step 3… my knees are still "level" with each other. Tilting my spine a few degrees to the right doesn't change the orientation of my knees.

And again, did you read what my friend confirmed for me? That the trail foot is retracted to shift the baseline right, not to make the knees "parallel" to anything?

1 minute ago, billchao said:

You're over-stating the importance of one tiny detail of setup that ceases to exist the moment you start moving, anyway.

Yup. And getting the "why" about the original piece - the trail foot being retracted slightly - wrong in the process.

It's to shift the baseline right. It's not so that the knees are parallel.

[Yff Theos]

OK, enough for me of this. I guess I said what I wanted, and heard what I needed. You won't convince me with your arguments, and viceversa.

Have a great and safe holidays.

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Yff Theos said:

OK, enough for me of this. I guess I said what I wanted, and heard what I needed. You won't convince me with your arguments, and viceversa.

Of course not vice versa! You've not made an argument for anything. Dude, I've been down the road you're going down, but I was smart enough to turn around and realize it's not just about one swing for all.

BTW, don't come at me with the "anonymous" stuff given that you've not even once shared YOUR name.

Merry Christmas.