Relief from a driveway?

[muggs]

I play in a league where the first hole runs along the road that enters the course parking lot. This road runs along the right side of the hole, so if someone slices or blocks a shot a ball can roll across. There are no markers near the road.

On the opposite side of the road there is just a few feet of grass and then a stockade style fence. If my ball lands in play it usually rolls across the road.

Can a player take a drop on the leftside of the road without penalty?

[Dormie1360]

Hard to answer without more info.  Do you know the status of the fence?  Is it a boundary fence, integral part of the course or an obstruction?

Can you drop in the "few feet of grass" and get full relief from the road?

[muggs]

I've actually had to look up the fence for a ruling on another hole. I can't remember the exact section of the rule book I found the answer in, but I do remember finding out you could not take releif from the fence without penalty (I think because it mark a boundary of the course as it does on the first hole in this situation).

No, there is not enough room to drop on the fence side of the road.

It goes fairway, about 10 yards of rough, then the driveway, then about a foot of grass, then the fence which borders the backyards of a development of houses.

I've seen players stand in the road and hit shots from the one foot of grass area as long as the fence didn't obstruct their swing. I wasn't sure that was legal at the time or not. So, I'm trying to get some clarity for the league.

[rustyredcab]

Are you seeking a free drop because the ball is on the road ( or stance is on the road) or just because the ball is on the wrong side of the road? And why would relief be on the left side of the road?

Most likely no. At best, if the road is like a cart path. you get relief on the side with nearest full relief and the fence would likely define a boarder and not allow for free relief.

If this happens often, I'm sure there is a local rule regarding the road. It would be odd if the road was in bounds. On my home course, there are no markers on the access road but there is a rule noted on the card that the road is OB in both directions. So OB if you are going West on #14 and OB if you are going East on #18. No lawyer wants you hitting over a road. :)

[muggs]

It would be due to the player's stance being in the road.

I think it would be O.B. as well. I've seen players hit from there.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by muggs

I think it would be O.B. as well. I've seen players hit from there.

You think players were hitting from OB?

[rustyredcab]

Time to ask someone in the pro shop. Many course have ambiguous things that require some clarification. Played a course with flower beds that were not marked. Pro said play it as it lies. After people were stepping on and blasting flowers for a few weeks, they made it a free drop. Someone has considered how that road should be played.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by muggs

I've actually had to look up the fence for a ruling on another hole. I can't remember the exact section of the rule book I found the answer in, but I do remember finding out you could not take releif from the fence without penalty (I think because it mark a boundary of the course as it does on the first hole in this situation).

No, there is not enough room to drop on the fence side of the road.

It goes fairway, about 10 yards of rough, then the driveway, then about a foot of grass, then the fence which borders the backyards of a development of houses.

I've seen players stand in the road and hit shots from the one foot of grass area as long as the fence didn't obstruct their swing. I wasn't sure that was legal at the time or not. So, I'm trying to get some clarity for the league.

The road is an immovable obstruction unless declared an integral part of the course my the committee.  You don't get relief from the road if the lie makes it impractical to swing on your intended line of play due to of interference with the out of bounds fence.  However, if your line of play because of the fence is necessarily changed to relieve that interference and the road still causes interference, then you may proceed to take relief under Rule 24 -2.  Apparently the nearest point of complete relief will probably be on the opposite side of the road, but not closer to the hole than where the ball lies.  This is how it appears to me, but I would have to see the actual situiation to make a more positive ruling.  I may be assuming too much by allowing the drop on the opposite side of the road.

[Dormie1360]

Edit.....Rick beat me to it.

I could see where the ball would be on the right side of the road or in the grass and not have interference from the fence, but would have obvious interference from the road. So relief would be justified.  I'm not sure if a NPR could be found on the right side of the road that would not be OB.......so the NPR could actually be on the left side of the road.  Although the fact that the fence is in the way in determining the NPR is irrelevant, I think being on the course could be a problem.

This is why the committee might, in this situation, deem the left edge of the road to be the boundary of the course.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Edit.....Rick beat me to it.

I could see where the ball would be on the right side of the road or in the grass and not have interference from the fence, but would have obvious interference from the road. So relief would be justified.  I'm not sure if a NPR could be found on the right side of the road that would not be OB.......so the NPR could actually be on the left side of the road.  Although the fact that the fence is in the way in determining the NPR is irrelevant, I think being on the course could be a problem.

This is why the committee might, in this situation, deem the left edge of the road to be the boundary of the course.

This is one of those situations where the committee should do one of two things.  Either move the OB inside of the road (making the road itself out of bounds), or declare the road as an integral part of the course (like the Road Hole, #17 on The Old Course).

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by muggs

I play in a league where the first hole runs along the road that enters the course parking lot. This road runs along the right side of the hole, so if someone slices or blocks a shot a ball can roll across. There are no markers near the road.

On the opposite side of the road there is just a few feet of grass and then a stockade style fence. If my ball lands in play it usually rolls across the road.

Can a player take a drop on the leftside of the road without penalty?

Probably. In the circumstances you can take a stance for a left handed stroke as if you were going to play the ball away from the hole back towards where you came from. As you will be standing on the path you can now take relief. This will be on the fairway side of the path. After determining the nearest point of relief for a LH stroke and dropping within 1 clublength you may now play a right handed stroke. If after the above you find your feet are again on the path for this new RH stroke you are in a new situation and can now take relief for that stroke.

[szaino]

There is nothing unusual about this situation.

If the road qualifies as a road from which you get relief:

1) you must first determine the nearest point of relief. This could be the left side it could be the right side of the road. But it is definitely one side and not the other.

2) if the drop is on the right side, you must first take your drop. After this is done, you then would determine if you are entitled to additional relief from a different situation. If the fence is an OB fence from which you would not normally get free relief, and it interferes with your intended swing, that's too bad.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Probably. In the circumstances you can take a stance for a left handed stroke as if you were going to play the ball away from the hole back towards where you came from. As you will be standing on the path you can now take relief. This will be on the fairway side of the path. After determining the nearest point of relief for a LH stroke and dropping within 1 clublength you may now play a right handed stroke. If after the above you find your feet are again on the path for this new RH stroke you are in a new situation and can now take relief for that stroke.

Hi Rulesman,

You lost me.  Given the OP's description, if I understand correctly the only way the road would be interfering is if the player played a right handed stroke. The player would be unable to play a left handed stroke because of the fence......which is not an obstruction.

Originally Posted by szaino

There is nothing unusual about this situation.

If the road qualifies as a road from which you get relief:

1) you must first determine the nearest point of relief. This could be the left side it could be the right side of the road. But it is definitely one side and not the other.

2) if the drop is on the right side, you must first take your drop. After this is done, you then would determine if you are entitled to additional relief from a different situation. If the fence is an OB fence from which you would not normally get free relief, and it interferes with your intended swing, that's too bad.

From the OP's description I think the issue centers around the fact there is no NPR on the right side of the road, regardless if the fence was there or not.  You can not drop out of bounds.......so the NPR is on the other side of the road.

I wouldn't mark the course this way.  The player is able to use the road to get relief from an integral part of the course......plus your average player would have no idea how to find the NPR.

A similar example.

33-2a/1

Exposed Water Pipe Adjacent and Parallel to Boundary Fence Causes Problems; Suggested Procedure

Q. An exposed water pipe (obstruction) which is parallel to, and about six inches inside, a boundary fence is causing a problem. If a ball lies near the boundary fence, the prohibition against free relief from the fence is effectively negated because in most cases the player would be entitled to drop away from the fence by taking free relief from the water pipe under Rule 24-2b . Is there a solution to this dilemma?

A. It is suggested that the water pipe be declared an integral part of the course and thus not an obstruction - see Definition of "Obstructions" - in which case the player would have to play the ball as it lies or deem it unplayable.

[Rulesman]

Dormie

The OP says

'On the opposite side of the road there is just a few feet of grass and then a stockade style fence'.

Which suggests that there is room to drop on the right and swing a club but not take a stance.

In the diagram X is the ball on the path. The npr for a RH is in the OOB but for a LH is at Y

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Dormie

The OP says

'On the opposite side of the road there is just a few feet of grass and then a stockade style fence'.

Which suggests that there is room to drop on the right and swing a club but not take a stance.

In the diagram X is the ball on the path. The npr for a RH is in the OOB but for a LH is at Y

Here is the OP's description in his second post in this thread:

Quote:

No, there is not enough room to drop on the fence side of the road.

It goes fairway, about 10 yards of rough, then the driveway, then about a foot of grass, then the fence which borders the backyards of a development of houses.

There is no place according to that where he could find a "nearest point of relief" on the fence side of the road.

[Dormie1360]

Rulesman,

You know if we keep this thread going long enough Shorty will be complaining.

Here's my understanding.

RH Golfer ball on spot X. The NPR is point Y.  With only a foot of grass to the right of the path before OB, there is no NPR availabe on the right side that allows relief from the path.

LF Golfer ball on spot X. The NPR is on the grass to the right of point X.  The player has relief from the path which is all that is required, he does not get relief from the OB Fence.

However....if the player then says his only reasonable shot at this point is to play a right handed shot, (because of the fence).....this puts his stance back on the path.  He then could take relief again.....this time with a NPR to the left of Y, allowing for his left handed stance which he can now go back to.  That's the only way I can see a left handed golfer winding up on the left side of the path.....which, having thought about it, is what you were probably trying to say in the paragraph I quoted from you.

Anyway that's my understanding of NPR.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

RH Golfer ball on spot X.  The NPR is point Y.  With only a foot of grass to the right of the path before OB, there is no NPR availabe on the right side that allows relief from the path.

Just to be sure, the fence here is only a problem because it is OB fence? If it wasn't OB fence, just a fence, then NPR would exist on RH side by standing on that foot of grass and dropping on fence, then most likely getting another relief based on immovable obstruction?

Now in this OP case because OB is so close, the ball can not be dropped so that it would hit course first, but it would hit OB?

[Jimdangles]

I think the real question here is..

why did the ball cross the road?