how to shoot lower scores?

[mdl]

In reply to the short game devotees, I'm gonna repost this:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time

And take a look at this:

Full shots make up MUCH more of the difference between pros than short game shots or putts.  For amateurs, yes, there are many 15 cappers and most 20+ cappers who could shave significant shots with a ton of short game practice, but you'll hit a ceiling (or floor rather) if you take that long game that had you at 20 and count only on short game and putting to shave strokes.  I've played with many guys who score much better than me who putt only a bit better than I and don't pitch/chip any better than I.  I've never played with anyone who scores significantly better than I who didn't have a MUCH better full shot game.

I'm a case in point of the floor for short game work leading to lower scores.  Where I used to live was set up so I spent a ton of time hitting < 30 yard shots for an hour+ at a time.  I got much better at those green side shots, and when I was practicing most heavily I definitely had some rounds where I shot maybe an 82-83 instead of 85-87, and it helped me come down from maybe a 13-14 to 11.  Spending that much time practicing putting obsessively maybe could shave another stroke or two off.  But those two things alone are ever going to get me to being the 70s player I want to be.  Even now that I've moved and spend much less time practicing those green side shots than I did at the peak, I've maintained most of that improvement in green side play with just more normal levels of short game maintenance practice.

Now if my full shot game drastically improved and I was GIR or just barely off the green with a setup for a relatively high percentage up and down attempt on every single green, then sure my next step for improvement might be to improve my short game and putting, and that might be a big part of getting me from 2 to scratch (obviously this is a guess since I don't know what that is like... yet!).  But mostly worrying about improving my short game just ain't gonna get me from ~10 to 2.  Not even close.

[daSeth]

^^ 100% I could not agree more...  The greatest short game in the world will never make up for the lack of ball striking.  If you want to shoot better scores, work on the ball striking until you are consistently hitting fairways and greens.  When you do miss, it is a slight miss and an easy up and down.  It just makes the game so much easier.

[daSeth]

Originally Posted by iacas

Misconceptions like these are why I wrote this:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time/

72 was basically THE LOWEST that guy could possibly shoot. Using basic math he had, what, 21 putts or so? Meanwhile I shot 63 the other day hitting 18 GIR and 63, while not the highest I could have shot (I could have missed some three footers I guess, and not made those two putts at about 10-15 feet), but it was pretty much the least stressful 63 in the world, while that guy was grinding his rear off to shoot +1.

Yes, yes, and more yes.  Why in world would anyone choose to scramble all day long?  Spend the time figuring out how to get from tee to green in regulation.

[Audaxi]

I have to agree with the point being made here. Although I didn't realize it until reading this, today's 9 holes was a perfect example of why GIR is so important. In 9 holes, I hit exactly 1 GIR, which is quite abysmal. I made 5 bogeys and 4 pars for a total of 40. Those 4 pars came from the one GIR I had and 3 up&downs;, and all my up & downs came from being either a little short or long (was windy today, and I was unprepared) after hitting my approach from the fairway. I used to live on the chipping and putting greens, but I think after reading this I'll have to spend a lot more time on the range.

[Jeffrey71]

Originally Posted by daSeth

Yes, yes, and more yes.  Why in world would anyone choose to scramble all day long?  Spend the time figuring out how to get from tee to green in regulation.

This is where I'm at. I get worn out mentally spending most of my time scrambling for par or bogey. Spending the time to figure out how to get more GIR would reduce the dreaded double and triple bogeys.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

The OP is playing off a 20 handicap. 63, 72, 79 are not likely in his near future. He asked how to shot lower scores than his current 90's.

I agree that he likely has the largest area of improvement (thrown away strokes) outside 200 yards. I also agree that if any of us is ever going to be near par, we need a great long game and, if it is good enough, you won't need much of a short game.

The guys I see every week shooting in the 90's and 100's would shoot in the 80's if they stayed out of trouble. And until you can work on a driver swing that stays out of trouble, I say hit something else if you want to shoot 88.

What say you?

I've said a few times that the short game is the quickest, easiest way to shave a few strokes. It's often true, but then again, there are some golfers who are disproportionately "better" at the short game than they are off the tee or with full swings. I've seen plenty of 10s who are like 5s with their short game and like 17s with their full swing. It's an easier skill to learn and hone.

But generally, if I wanted the most immediate improvement , I would do three things:

1. Work on your putting distance

2. Work on developing two or three basic shots around the greens with one wedge

3. Work on developing a definite pattern with the tee ball and full swings, even if it's a ball that slices - so long as it's a pattern.

Then for longer term development, the 65/25/10 deal applies, for sure, if you have more than two weeks to shave some strokes or you want to go lower than is possible with a little short game practice.

[NuclearMike]

Over the past year I spent a lot of time practicing my short game, usually at the beginning (to warm up) and the end (when I'm already loose) of a 110 ball bucket.  I'm better than ever from 100 yards and in and have more recently been working on my long game.  Hitting fairways and greens is what I need to do now to bring my scores down in a hurry, so working on the full swing is what I need to keep doing to accelerate my improvement.  I still believe that working on the short game helped my complete game but if I can hit the ball better with the full swing I'll improve faster.

[daSeth]

I'd like to take the discussion around the long game/shot making a step further here...

There is a philosophy (with which I agree wholeheartedly) that a good golf swing should produce consistent, repeatable, positive results, and stand up well under pressure. I don't believe that you can do it without proper golf swing mechanics. Ever wonder why the pros make it look so easy? It's because for them, it is. They don't have some supernatural ability. Talent, yes absolutely. But the talent, in my book, is what separates the PGA professional from the fairly common scratch player or non-pro better-than-scratch player. What pros and low handicappers have in common is that one way or another, they have developed proper swing mechanics.

If you have the proper mechanics, you should be swinging with confidence, knowing that you are going to produce a great shot every time. You should produce a lot of great shots, good shots most of the time, at worst, a pretty decent miss. With that in mind, going to the range and mindlessly mashing balls (with the same swing that produced erratic results in the past) for hours on end will not be productive in terms of improvement. If anything, it will simply perpetuate the bad habits and frustration. It's probably the reason that most people don't like going to the range.

I believe that the player interested in improvement in the long game needs to do one of two things:

1. For those who are not DIY, take lessons from a reputable, proven, instructor on a regular basis. Two or three times a month will do. When you go to the range, work on the items the instructor gives you. Repeat until the results are in and you are hitting the best shots of your life and your scoring reflects that.
2. For those who are DIY, make an solid effort to understand the proper mechanics of a golf swing.  Analyze where you are at (video, mirror) and compare to the pros.  Find drills that will create productive improvement in mechanics.  Work dilgently at the range. Repeat until the results are in and you are hitting the best shots of your life and your scoring reflects that.

Either way, the focus has to be on making an educated, informed change from what you are doing now, because what you are doing now is clearly not working.  And the scoring benefits from developing proper mechanics are huge.

The results of the changes should bring significant improvement very quickly. If they aren't, you are not making the right changes, you have the wrong instructor, your understanding of the golf swing is wrong, your application of the golf swing to yourself is incorrect... etc.

[cooke119]

Work on your short game and putting. The driver is the least important club in the bag. Yeah its great hitting the bombs but the really good golfer have excellant short games. A guy I play with hits his drives less than 200 yards but he shoots in the mid 80s. People go to the range and hit drives, woods and long irons all day long but don't work the short game. Then they wonder why their game isn't improving? Find a putting green where they allow you to practice chipping and spend your time chipping and putting. If they don't allow you to chip, go to an open field and chip. I throw a towel down and I practice wedge shots from all different distances. I use a range finder so I know my distances, you can just pace off the distances. Good luck and keep working on it.

[cooke119]

I'm not saying the long game isn't important, of course it is. But you can't just work the long game. If your a 20+ handicap and hit the ball 245, I wouldn't work on distance.

[Jeffrey71]

Back in July Eric talked about 65/25/10. In the last 10, 18 hole rounds I've seen how much pressure I put on my short game by not being able to hit fairways and GIR consistently. I am going to give the 65/25/10 a good effort with the goal of more consistent fairways and GIR. Yes, through a lot of short game practice, I've gone from scoring 95-100 consistently to 86 -90 consistently. I want to find a good balance. I'm starting to see that better scores don't start anywhere, they are a result of......proper and effective practice.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by cooke119

Work on your short game and putting. The driver is the least important club in the bag. Yeah its great hitting the bombs but the really good golfer have excellant short games. A guy I play with hits his drives less than 200 yards but he shoots in the mid 80s. People go to the range and hit drives, woods and long irons all day long but don't work the short game. Then they wonder why their game isn't improving? Find a putting green where they allow you to practice chipping and spend your time chipping and putting. If they don't allow you to chip, go to an open field and chip. I throw a towel down and I practice wedge shots from all different distances. I use a range finder so I know my distances, you can just pace off the distances. Good luck and keep working on it.

Originally Posted by cooke119

I'm not saying the long game isn't important, of course it is. But you can't just work the long game. If your a 20+ handicap and hit the ball 245, I wouldn't work on distance.

Working on the full shots does not equal working on distance.  Working on full shots is narrowing the dispersion cone and achieving a repeatable swing that gives consistent results, predictable shape and distance, and a dominant predictable miss.

Sure, if you're not super old and in decent shape but only drive it 180, distance will be part of it.  But if you're not old and in solid shape without injuries and you only drive it 180 you've got tons of problems keeping you from achieving the goals listed above, and figuring out those things will almost surely give you at least some distance improvement as a side benefit.

[phan52]

I think it depends on how much time that you have. If you have the time, by all means, work on your swing and your ball striking. But if  you are asking how to lower scores in the short term, here's a suggestion.

Back in my younger years, when I was working harder at my job, raising a family and didn't have as much time to work on my swing, I was getting frustrated about being a 25 handicap. I couldn't hit it out of my shadow, and was considering giving up the game. My pro told me that he could help me reconstruct my swing in order to get better, but he understood that I didn't have the time. Since the strength of my very-weak game was keeping it in play off the tee, he decided to teach me how to play from 100 yards in. I became a very acceptable short game player and, by the end of that season, I was a 17 handicap. I've worked on my swing and ball striking over the years and even got into single digits for a half season a few years back. One thing that is always there is the 100 yards-and-in game and, as a result, I can score from anywhere. I'm not a great putter, but I usually give myself a very makeable putt. I frustrate the hell out of guys who hit it 40 yards past me off the tee.

[inthehole]

keep it in the short grass - always always always

ALWAYS.

To do this, you must take an easy controlled swing.     Leave the hard swings to the scratch and better players.    My game improved dramatically when i realized this.     concentrate on ball first contact with a nice smooth tempo.    OK, S L O W backswing forces a smooth tempo.     if you hit the ball solidly, you will get plenty of distance ... if you swing hard & don't make the short grass, you'll not break 20 hcp - unless you have a fierce scrambling game.

Slow it down & hit the ball solidly - EVERY time.   Force yourself to do this.     I've dropped about 8 points in my hcp this year by doing exactly this & it's falling every GHIN revision ...

[Goonsidious]

Originally Posted by inthehole

keep it in the short grass - always always always

ALWAYS.

To do this, you must take an easy controlled swing.     Leave the hard swings to the scratch and better players.    My game improved dramatically when i realized this.     concentrate on ball first contact with a nice smooth tempo.    OK, S L O W backswing forces a smooth tempo.     if you hit the ball solidly, you will get plenty of distance ... if you swing hard & don't make the short grass, you'll not break 20 hcp - unless you have a fierce scrambling game.

Slow it down & hit the ball solidly - EVERY time.   Force yourself to do this.     I've dropped about 8 points in my hcp this year by doing exactly this & it's falling every GHIN revision ...

Plus with this.. even if it doesn't go as far as you imagine.. at least it's a smooth swing and you don't look like a fool digging at the ground and shanking irons.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mdl

Working on the full shots does not equal working on distance.  Working on full shots is narrowing the dispersion cone and achieving a repeatable swing that gives consistent results, predictable shape and distance, and a dominant predictable miss.

Sure, if you're not super old and in decent shape but only drive it 180, distance will be part of it.  But if you're not old and in solid shape without injuries and you only drive it 180 you've got tons of problems keeping you from achieving the goals listed above, and figuring out those things will almost surely give you at least some distance improvement as a side benefit.

I could not possibly agree with this statement any more, no matter how hard I try.  Distance is not even close to a problem for me (good drives go 260-290) but the 'long game' is, by far, my biggest weakness.

In the 11 rounds I've played since I've started keeping stats (golfshot) I hit the fairway, miss left, and miss right, each 1/3 of the time.  (36%, 29%, 35%, respectively to be exact)  My dispersion cone is all over the place, and I am about as far from having a "dominant predictable miss" as you can be.  I also average 4 penalties per round, and most of those come from stray tee shots.  If I can start putting the ball into the fairway all of the time, my handicap will go way down.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I could not possibly agree with this statement any more, no matter how hard I try.  Distance is not even close to a problem for me (good drives go 260-290) but the 'long game' is, by far, my biggest weakness.

In the 11 rounds I've played since I've started keeping stats (golfshot) I hit the fairway, miss left, and miss right, each 1/3 of the time.  (36%, 29%, 35%, respectively to be exact)  My dispersion cone is all over the place, and I am about as far from having a "dominant predictable miss" as you can be.  I also average 4 penalties per round, and most of those come from stray tee shots.  If I can start putting the ball into the fairway all of the time, my handicap will go way down.

But how much time do you have to work on your swing to narrow that dispersion cone? In a lot of cases, it requires a complete do-over.That takes a lot of time and most amateurs don't have the time to make that happen. Personally, I take a driving lesson every early spring and just try to keep positive swing thoughts throughout the season. I only can get to a range once or twice a week and that ain't enough to tweak my driving.

On the holes where you miss the fairway and don't have an acceptable lie, you should lay up to a spot where you can score with your short game, and getting an acceptable short game is much easier than tearing your swing down. Avoid the OB as much as you can. I have a pretty wide dispersion cone myself (and I don't hit it nearly as far as you) and we have 9 straight holes with OB right. I hardly ever hit it out. I aim down the left edge of the fairway and hope for the best. On the holes where I miss the fairway, I still have ways to score. I play to my strength, and my strength is my short game because I spend most of my limited practice time on it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by phan52

But how much time do you have to work on your swing to narrow that dispersion cone? In a lot of cases, it requires a complete do-over.That takes a lot of time and most amateurs don't have the time to make that happen. Personally, I take a driving lesson every early spring and just try to keep positive swing thoughts throughout the season. I only can get to a range once or twice a week and that ain't enough to tweak my driving.

On the holes where you miss the fairway and don't have an acceptable lie, you should lay up to a spot where you can score with your short game, and getting an acceptable short game is much easier than tearing your swing down. Avoid the OB as much as you can. I have a pretty wide dispersion cone myself (and I don't hit it nearly as far as you) and we have 9 straight holes with OB right. I hardly ever hit it out. I aim down the left edge of the fairway and hope for the best. On the holes where I miss the fairway, I still have ways to score. I play to my strength, and my strength is my short game because I spend most of my limited practice time on it.

I disagree about the "complete" do-over part.  There are little pieces here and there wrong with my swing, and one at a time I'll pick them off and the swing will improve each time.  I think that is true about everybody.

And as far as most amateurs not having enough time to get better ... well, then there is really no good answer.  If you don't have time to practice the things you need to work on, you will not get better.  If somebody really wants to get better they will make time.  (I don't have a lot of free time right now with little toddlers running rampant at home all the time, so I practice at lunchtime during work 2 or 3 times a week.)

And if I was you, since your short game is already your strength, I'd start working on something else.  That's why I practice my long game when I practice.  Specifically because it is my biggest, most glaring, weakness.  It's not hard to get the ball on the green from 50-60 yards and in (or whatever you would define as the "short game"), and putting ain't that hard either so why waste too much time on them?  I mean, I don't practice putting at all and over the course of those same 11 rounds I've averaged 31.5 putts per round.  How many strokes could I possibly save by practicing putting and chipping?  One, maybe 2 a round?  Conversely, how many strokes can I save by figuring out how to keep the ball in the fairway?  Like I said, 4 penalties a round, figure most are lateral hazards, so I'd estimate somewhere in the vicinity of 6 shots a round, just on those alone.  Nevermind the fact that the better swing is going to also bring more of the less wayward tee shots into the fairway, its going to bring more of those approach shots onto the green for those precious GIR's.  Once I start nailing fairways and greens, then it's time to really fine tune that short game because it'll be those last few strokes needed to get down to scratch.

Thinking of practicing short game, short game, short game, to lower scores reminds me of that silly Prilosec OTC commercial where Larry the Cable Guy says "taking medicine for heartburn after you have it is like checking on your burgers after they're burnt."  Same is true for short game practice when your struggling to get to the green.  So what if you are good at getting up and down if its always for bogeys and doubles?