Sandbagging- What is Permitted?

[MEfree]

The USGA Handicap manual says " Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System , namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played..."

So what does it mean to try and make the best score?

[Fourputt]

I'm not even going to offer a vote because every single answer except the first one would need qualification (and the first one is just silly).  You are worrying this bone far too much.  This is the second nearly identical thread, except that you added a poll this time.  You've read too much into one line in the handicap manual, while ignoring any mitigating factors in the making of such decisions.  One phrase which is mentioned several times in the Rules of Golf is that the player is expected to play "without delay".  There are many conceivable situations where that would take precedence over anything in the handicap manual.  Pace of play on a busy golf course is number one priority in my book.

I personally don't think that hard when I'm playing golf.  I'm a feel player, and for that I don't need to be so analytical.  I look at the ball and the lie and I know what I want to do.  I don't change my mind because that means that I'm over-thinking the situation.  That doesn't mean that I'm always right, but it means that changing my mind is usually more likely to be wrong than going with my first impression.

I couldn't play like you do.  If I thought about it that much I could never pull the trigger at all.  I'd just be all bound up in knots.  I pick a line of play from behind the ball, pick a spot a couple of feet in front of that, set to that spot and hit.  95% or more of my putts are read from behind the ball.  I pick a spot on the line I want, take one practice stroke, then set up and hit the putt.  And I'm a good putter without walking, stalking, measuring, etc.

[MEfree]

  Fourputt said:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is the second nearly identical thread, except that you added a poll this time.

I started a new thread because in the other one I talked about pace of play and that is what everyone focused on.  For this one I was hoping that everyone would focus more specifically on what the handicap manual says regarding trying to make your best score on each hole without focusing on the pace of play issue- there are enough threads about that already.

You mentioned that you don`t usually take the full 5 minutes to search for your ball...would you take the full 5 minutes if your were on the 18th hole and your match was tied?  If your handicap is based on you NOT taking the full 5 minutes (and the resulting scores that come from additional lost balls), I think it would be unfair for you to take the full 5 minutes only in competitive situations that use that handicap.

What do you guys think about the following?  I sometimes play with a guy who played to a +3 for many years and was playing to a 6 to start the season (and a 2 currently).  I can`t say he ever intentionally tries to miss a shot, but always seems to try harder when there is something on the line.  In fact, one day he said that if money is involved, he almost never misses from inside 5 feet, and from what I have seen, this is true.

So what is and is not sandbagging?  How hard do you have to try in non-competitive rounds that are being posted for handicap purposes?

[Dave2512]

I agree it's the companion thread for the other declaring that adhering to the ROG somehow slows play. Again I'm not seeing it. I don't think the goal being the best possible score and a reasonable pace of play are mutually exclussive. I don't think any of the poll options, other than the first one, are tantamount to sandbagging. There are certain instances where those things happen.

[MEfree]

  Dave2512 said:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I agree it's the companion thread for the other declaring that adhering to the ROG somehow slows play. Again I'm not seeing it. I don't think the goal being the best possible score and a reasonable pace of play are mutually exclussive. I don't think any of the poll options, other than the first one, are tantamount to sandbagging. There are certain instances where those things happen.

I agree with the bolded section but don`t want this thread to be about pace of play.  With that said, I do think a reasonable pace of play is somewhat based on the ROG.  i.e. if the ROG gave a distance only penalty for a lost ball and said the maximum search time was 2 minutes, then this would make the reasonable pace of play for the average hacker a bit quicker, especially on a tougher course.

Going back to my poll, there may be instances where those things happen, but don`t you think some players only let those things happen when there is nothing on the line?  Aren`t those players sandbaggers?  If handicaps were only based on competitive scores, then this wouldn`t be an issue, but that is not the handicapping system that most of us use.

So what are some examples that you feel are sandbagging?

[Dave2512]

More often than not those I golf with have a vanity handicap at best so I'm probably not a good judge of it. These folks aren't playing tournaments and golf is more about being active and social for them. Personally there are days where I'm not out there to score, the much maligned paracticing on the course thing, so again not much experience with it. I understand the sandbagging thing but most I know are playing to be the best they can be. I run with the golf is a process of practice and improvement crowd. Most spend too much money on it to sandbag. How much I enjoy the day is directly proportional to how well I play.

[wadesworld]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

What do you guys think about the following?  I sometimes play with a guy who played to a +3 for many years and was playing to a 6 to start the season (and a 2 currently).  I can`t say he ever intentionally tries to miss a shot, but always seems to try harder when there is something on the line.  In fact, one day he said that if money is involved, he almost never misses from inside 5 feet, and from what I have seen, this is true.

So what is and is not sandbagging?  How hard do you have to try in non-competitive rounds that are being posted for handicap purposes?

Sandbagging is intentionally inflating your score to gain a competitive advantage.

Relaxing when you're in a round with friends is not sandbagging.  So you missed a couple 3 footers you normally make.  So what?  So you only searched for your ball for 3 minutes because people are behind you.  So what?  So you were stupid and lazy and didn't go back to the cart to change clubs, so what?

None of those are sandbagging.

Sandbagging is being on pace to shoot an 82, and then 4-putting the last three holes from 12 feet when you've not had more than 2-putt the rest of the round.  Sandbagging is not turning a score because it's too good.  Sandbagging is not applying ESC even though you know you should.

Sandbaggers certainly exist, but they mainly exist from a score turning-in perspective.  Few people care enough about sandbagging to intentionally miss strokes.

[Fourputt]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is the second nearly identical thread, except that you added a poll this time.

I started a new thread because in the other one I talked about pace of play and that is what everyone focused on.  For this one I was hoping that everyone would focus more specifically on what the handicap manual says regarding trying to make your best score on each hole without focusing on the pace of play issue- there are enough threads about that already.

You mentioned that you don`t usually take the full 5 minutes to search for your ball...would you take the full 5 minutes if your were on the 18th hole and your match was tied?  If your handicap is based on you NOT taking the full 5 minutes (and the resulting scores that come from additional lost balls), I think it would be unfair for you to take the full 5 minutes only in competitive situations that use that handicap.

What do you guys think about the following?  I sometimes play with a guy who played to a +3 for many years and was playing to a 6 to start the season (and a 2 currently).  I can`t say he ever intentionally tries to miss a shot, but always seems to try harder when there is something on the line.  In fact, one day he said that if money is involved, he almost never misses from inside 5 feet, and from what I have seen, this is true.

So what is and is not sandbagging?  How hard do you have to try in non-competitive rounds that are being posted for handicap purposes?

See my answer in post #24 in your Slow play thread on this forum.  That explains it the best I can think of.  You can't supersede the Rules of Golf with the handicap manual.  If you are playing by the rules, then you are not sandbagging, either normal or reverse.   The statement in the handicap manual applies to an intentional act to pad your score for the purpose of creating a false handicap. If you take that action for any reason which falls within the rules, then it does not violate the handicap rules either.  Most often that means that the act was made in the interest of place of play.  That is a legitimate reason for not taking 5 minutes for a search.  That is a legitimate reason for not searching at all.  That is a legitimate reason for declaring a stray shot as unplayable and immediately dropping and playing a substituted ball.  None of those cases would be sandbagging because they are all done in an attempt to comply with the rules, and at the same time, maintain a good pace of play.  They are not done to create a false handicap.

If a player played his tee shot in the middle of the fairway, then declared it unplayable and hit a second ball, THAT would be sandbagging.

[Datsyuk]

I voted for the intentional 3-putt and the others would be the expectation during a casual round at a comfortable pace (i.e. brisk without consciously rushing).

[MEfree]

A friend was telling me about a former college golfer with a 5 handicap who almost always won their Saturday Club competitions (which were for a decent amount of $).  When he played with him, he said the guy had a great swing and it was the easiest even par round he ever saw.  After the guy repeatedly played better than his handicap each Saturday, he started asking around about how the guy could be a 5 capper.

The explanation that he got was that he was currently unemployed, got drunk and played most mid-week afternoons with his girlfriend posting scores in the 80s.  On Saturday morning, he was always sober enough to shoot around par and win the $.  Sandbagging?

[Dave2512]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

A friend was telling me about a former college golfer with a 5 handicap who almost always won their Saturday Club competitions (which were for a decent amount of $).  When he played with him, he said the guy had a great swing and it was the easiest even par round he ever saw.  After the guy repeatedly played better than his handicap each Saturday, he started asking around about how the guy could be a 5 capper.

The explanation that he got was that he was currently unemployed, got drunk and played most mid-week afternoons with his girlfriend posting scores in the 80s.  On Saturday morning, he was always sober enough to shoot around par and win the $.  Sandbagging?

I think you can find the answer in yourself. Do you play to your handicap every time out? I don't, probably more erratic than an 8.6 but I'm all over the place, drunk or sober. But I can honestly say I do play better when I have a reason to. Even if it's just to keep up with a better player.

[Datsyuk]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

A friend was telling me about a former college golfer with a 5 handicap who almost always won their Saturday Club competitions (which were for a decent amount of $).  When he played with him, he said the guy had a great swing and it was the easiest even par round he ever saw.  After the guy repeatedly played better than his handicap each Saturday, he started asking around about how the guy could be a 5 capper.

The explanation that he got was that he was currently unemployed, got drunk and played most mid-week afternoons with his girlfriend posting scores in the 80s.  On Saturday morning, he was always sober enough to shoot around par and win the $.  Sandbagging?

It sounds pathetic.

[Pablo68]

I know a guy who had about a 10 handicap but played near a 2 in actual rounds. When we would be playing for money and someone had already won the hole, he'd smack it around on the green to take a double bogey to max out his score. Now THAT's sandbagging.............

[Putridgasbag]

Sandbagging- What is Permitted?.... and that there folks is why the handicap system is a joke.

Jumping back on the dead horse and beating it some more, my belief is that handicaps kept by the governing body of game should be tournament rounds only. Playing only casual rounds? Lots of free places to keep track of your handicap, you really don't need an "official" number. It is to the point that our weekly Saturday mens morning tournament has its own handicap and I know this to be a very common at other clubs.

Did this at my club a little while ago. Went to the trophy case and looked at the low net trophies and noted multiple winners. Found the guy who had his name the most on the trophies and looked up his rounds for the last few years. Amazing how many of his best rounds were in tournaments or club competitions. If you ask him he just really concentrates when their is something on the line. Handicap committee? Not much of one I am afraid and again this isn't that uncommon at a lot of clubs. We have a good handicap committee doing the Saturday and its associated competitions but everyday committee... nope.

[turtleback]

Wow, a thread about how much cheating is OK.

Wow.

[Golfingdad]

  turtleback said:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Wow, a thread about how much cheating is OK.

Wow.

Maybe that is what it sounds like based on the title, but if you read the entire poll, it's not really that at all.

For me, the only thing on that list that I would call outright, unqualifiable cheating is the first choice.  There is no situation where intentionally 3 putting so you can post a higher score is not cheating.  (Read them again, and I guess I'd also have to call 'not looking for an original ball that you could score better with' also outright cheating.

And a couple of the choices are silly.  How is it even possible to not "estimate" yardage for a shot?  He must have meant to not get the exact yardage.  Same thing with not reading the break on a putt.  Must've meant not read it too thoroughly because if you look at the ground between the ball and the hole at all, you are going to estimate the break somewhat.

All that said ... it is still a bit of a silly thread.

[Beachcomber]

I'm sorry... But I still don't get the point of Sandbagging.  I mean winning some 'Low Net' tournament is lame.  Go low, or go home!

[MEfree]

Maybe I should not have used sandbagging in the title...what I was trying to figure out is how hard do you have to try to comply with the handicap manual.

While I encounter more guys with vanity handicaps, I think there are certainly some guys who try harder when there is something on the line- not outright sandbaggers, but when there is nothing on the line they either don`t give a sh*t or become more concerned about speed of play.

The USGA Handicap manual says " Two basic premises underlie the USGA Handicap System , namely that each player will try to make the best score at every hole in every round, regardless of where the round is played..."

So how hard do you have to try when nothing is on the line?  Is everything short of intentionally missing a shot acceptable or do you have to give an effort similar to how you would with something on the line?