Can someone explain how to hit a draw?

[SoundandFury]

Got paired up with a guy during my last round who was pretty good, played college golf, etc.  His shot shape with his irons and fairway woods, particularly off the tee, were incredibly.  The ball starts out looking like one hell of a push (like it's going to land at least 15-20 yards right of the target, and then seems to dive left and end up right in the middle.

As my ball striking has improved, I've started messing around with shot shaping, but nothing i do comes close to this.  I either hook it, block it, or best case, it's nothing more than about a 2-3 yards draw that starts right but ends up a little more left then I intended.

I've googled and youtub'ed countless sites and videos, so I know all about an inside to out swing path (which I aim for on every shot, so I'm not sure what the difference is).  Can anyone tell me how to do it? I know I'm not going to go out and start hitting perfect little draws anytime soon, but I'd love to know the mechanics.

On a side note, i for some reason hit pretty decent fades with my driver.  Not intentionally though.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

Got paired up with a guy during my last round who was pretty good, played college golf, etc.  His shot shape with his irons and fairway woods, particularly off the tee, were incredibly.  The ball starts out looking like one hell of a push (like it's going to land at least 15-20 yards right of the target, and then seems to dive left and end up right in the middle.

As my ball striking has improved, I've started messing around with shot shaping, but nothing i do comes close to this.  I either hook it, block it, or best case, it's nothing more than about a 2-3 yards draw that starts right but ends up a little more left then I intended.

I've googled and youtub'ed countless sites and videos, so I know all about an inside to out swing path (which I aim for on every shot, so I'm not sure what the difference is).  Can anyone tell me how to do it? I know I'm not going to go out and start hitting perfect little draws anytime soon, but I'd love to know the mechanics.

On a side note, i for some reason hit pretty decent fades with my driver.  Not intentionally though.

The face has to be closed RELATIVE to the swing path.  If you are "blocking it" (I assume that means a straight push?) and hooking it, that is similar to my swing.  It means your path is out to the right but the face is also out to the right on the pushes, and closed too much on the hooks.

For the record, I sometimes hit some 15 yard draws, but I don't think that is ideal at all ... I think those 2-3 yard draws are much better.

[SoundandFury]

So, when I hit a straight push, i.e. ball takes off right and keeps going (no curve, or slice), i'm swing out to in and the club face is open at impact, and when I hook it (seriously 8 out 10 times I purposefully try to draw the ball rather than hit straight), it's closed?

I can see what you mean about big vs. small draws.  when this dude missed, he missed HUGE.  especially with fairway woods, he ended up a good 30 yards off the target a couple of times.

Big draws look cooler though...

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

So, when I hit a straight push, i.e. ball takes off right and keeps going (no curve, or slice), i'm swing out to in and the club face is open at impact, and when I hook it (seriously 8 out 10 times I purposefully try to draw the ball rather than hit straight), it's closed?

I can see what you mean about big vs. small draws.  when this dude missed, he missed HUGE.  especially with fairway woods, he ended up a good 30 yards off the target a couple of times.

Big draws look cooler though...

No, sorry, I meant that your swing path was in to out.  And, yes, when you hit the pushes, your clubface is pointing the same direction.  (That's the easy one - whenever the ball doesn't curve, you know that your swing path and clubface were both pointing exactly that direction.  It's a good diagnostic!)

When you hook it, your club face is definitely closed relative to your swing path and the starting line of your ball will generally tell you that.

I disagree with you on your last statement.  They only look cool to me when I've pushed it way out to the right then after I started panicking I realize that it's coming back and sigh with relief.  I am working towards, ideally, something like a 5 yard draw.

Oh, and incidentally, your driver fades might be explained more if you were to read up on the "D-plane."  Short version - your swing is not horizontal like a baseball swing, or vertical like a croquet swing, it's on an angle in the middle somewhere.  The club down and out until it hits the bottom of the arc, and up and in after that.  If you hit up on your driver, all else being equal, the same swing that produces draws with irons can produce fades with a driver.

[jd924]

Got paired up with a guy during my last round who was pretty good, played college golf, etc.  His shot shape with his irons and fairway woods, particularly off the tee, were incredibly.  The ball starts out looking like one hell of a push (like it's going to land at least 15-20 yards right of the target, and then seems to dive left and end up right in the middle.  As my ball striking has improved, I've started messing around with shot shaping, but nothing i do comes close to this.  I either hook it, block it, or best case, it's nothing more than about a 2-3 yards draw that starts right but ends up a little more left then I intended.  I've googled and youtub'ed countless sites and videos, so I know all about an inside to out swing path (which I aim for on every shot, so I'm not sure what the difference is).  Can anyone tell me how to do it? I know I'm not going to go out and start hitting perfect little draws anytime soon, but I'd love to know the mechanics.  On a side note, i for some reason hit pretty decent fades with my driver.  Not intentionally though.

Ok so I recently had your problem for quite a while, I'll tell you how I tweaked it to hit 5 push draws with even my long which I could not do. I worked with evolvr for 2 months so they helped my swing a bunch but I figured a lot of this out on my own. So first thing you want to make sure your grip, alignment and posture is all good. Refer to the posture thread by mvmac to get a clearer picture, your upper back needs to be rounded. This is important because it helps keep your head steady with the proper hip turn (knee losing flex) along with your arms working properly to be on plane. Anyways make sure you got at least 2 knuckles with your left hand along with your body aiming left. Assuming your head is not moving back and forth on the back and down swing along with your path being in to out, your face is closing at too fast of a rate. Imagine your target line being a straight line parallel to your feet. In order to hit a push draw, you need your face angle to be just right of that. Your swing path then needs to be just right of your face angle. So how I did this was I made sure my head was steady by turning my shoulders in a circle. On the downswing I regained flexing in my right knee and pushed my hips forward without my head moving forward. This is huge, you cannot play consistent golf with your head moving forward on your downswing. The feeling for me was keeping my head steady and making sure my club face stayed out to the right without it rolling over. Don't listen to the people who say "release the club", that makes people roll the face through impact which causes your hook along with the occasional push if you time it right. This takes time and it's difficult to say without seeing your swing but, you want to keep that face square through impact as long as possible. That's where the feeling of swinging to the right for me came in. I often rolled my right hand (and still do when I miss it). So for me to keep the face square I had to exaggerate th feeling of keeping my face angle out to the right. Note I didn't say path, your path most likely is out the right far enough so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Focus on your club face angle with your remaining steady and I guarantee you will start hitting draws.

[saevel25]

Lets say you line up square to your target line, and the target line is pointed straight down the middle of the fairway

Push: Inside to out swing path, lets say +4°, then the the clubface will be open +4°

Push Fade: Swing Path +4°, Clubface a few degrees more open, lets say +5-6°

Push Draw: Swing Path +4°, Clubface a few degrees less than, lets say +2-3°

Straight shot: Club Path +0°, Club Face +0°

Pull is the opposite, and a difference between a slice and a fade is the degree in which the clubface is open to the swing path.

If you hit a pull slice, then your looking at a large outside to in swing path, and a clubface that is still closed to the target line (ball starts left), but will slice right (open to the swing path)

So the push draw would be one were you have a inside to out swing path, with open clubface to the target line (ball starts right), but slightly closed to the swing path (draws the ball)

So, clubface relative to target line = starting ball flight

clubface relative to the swing path = draw or fade spin

[limoric]

If I had to think too much about swing path and degree by which my club face was open or closed, I would never be able to work the ball today. I'm starting my 12Th year of golf (from age 27); for the first 4 years or so, everything was a push fade, for the next 4 everything was a pull fade (i was starting to get the feel of impact). 4 years ago, I bought a momentis swing trainer and swung it all winter. I also put some feel grips (reverse taper) on all my clubs the following spring. The swing trainer helped me develop that in to out swing, as it's very difficult to come over the top with it. The reverse taper grips put the feel of the club in my left fingers and quited my right hand. Within a year I was drawing the ball, so much so that I was aiming more and more right just to get the ball in the middle of the fairway or green. Throughout this processes, my body learned what an in to out swing with a closed stance felt like and it was able to connect with my brain. At the start of my 9Th season, I could no longer hit a fade; my previous fade was as a result of poor mechanics; therefore I could not simply go back to an over the top swing. It took me a year to fade the ball and even then I kept reverting to a draw as my go to shot.

Today, I can work the ball pretty well how I want. No one is going to be able to teach you how to draw the ball (especially the on line community) until you train your body to know what it feels like. If you are like most golfers, your fade is unintentional, it's not due to good mechanics.

Here is how I work the ball today, but I only understand this because I can feel shots now; that is to say, my brain is doing all the work. I still could not work the ball today, if I had to think about an in to out swing or vise verse. When I want to draw the ball, my stance is closed and I aim right; the ball is slightly back in my stance, I accelerate the club head through impact, delaying my hips (by brain is thinking about the club head clearing). When I want to fade the ball, I open my stance and play the ball to the left and forward in my stance, I accelerate my hips faster, delaying the release of the club head (my brain is not thinking about the club head at all, only my hips)

So to draw, my brain is connecting with the release of the club head, my club face is usually wide open at address, contrary to common thought. To fade my brain is only thinking about my hips clearing. I never think about an in to out swing or the position of the club head (open or closed), though an open club face at address does trigger my brain to draw the ball...

I tried a couple lessons 6 years ago and all it did was frustrate me, because explaining feel is different than experiencing feel, my brain could never connect the concept. Feel players will tell you they have no idea how they work the ball exactly, only that it does what they're thinking in their setup.

[saevel25]

Well its not thinking about degree's its just understanding that the ball will start out were the clubface is pointed, not were your body is lined up, and its understanding that you hit a draw with an open clubface, but not to the swing path. So if your hitting a push, then tweak the grip a bit, or maybe close the clubface a bit at address.

[limoric]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Well its not thinking about degree's its just understanding that the ball will start out were the club face is pointed, not were your body is lined up, and its understanding that you hit a draw with an open club face, but not to the swing path. So if your hitting a push, then tweak the grip a bit, or maybe close the club face a bit at address.

I cant say I really agree with you. If I want to really hook the ball, the club face will certainly be closed at impact, but the ball will still start right, because my swing path is pushing the ball out to the right. The opposite is true for a fade, I'm doing everything I can to get my body (not the club) to the right side as fast as possible, this action will cause me to cut the ball to the left  imparting side spin. Swing path has everything to do with it, but I'm not thinking about an in to out swing or vise verse during the process. It's all about releasing the club head for a draw or the hips for the fade. Slicers can't draw the ball, because they think they need to do something with the club. You work the ball with your body, not the club, it's just hanging on for the ride.

Watching the final round yesterday at Sherwood, they had trackman setup on one of the par 3's, I forget which one. The hole called for a fade and the commentator described each player trying to get onto their left side to cut the ball, some laboring to do so as a fade is not their natural shot shape. There was no mentioned of club face.

Thinking about the club face is why most slicers will never learn to draw the ball...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by limoric

I cant say I really agree with you. If I want to really hook the ball, the club face will certainly be closed at impact, but the ball will still start right, because my swing path is pushing the ball out to the right.

I'm not going to beat you over the head with this, but you're wrong, and you should read this: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws . Or watch this video (I'll hide in a spoiler for those tired of seeing it):

Simply put: the ball starts generally where the face is pointing and curves away from the path. The path is not the primary determinate of the starting direction of the golf ball.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I cant say I really agree with you. If I want to really hook the ball, the club face will certainly be closed at impact, but the ball will still start right, because my swing path is pushing the ball out to the right. The opposite is true for a fade, I'm doing everything I can to get my body (not the club) to the right side as fast as possible, this action will cause me to cut the ball to the left  imparting side spin. Swing path has everything to do with it, but I'm not thinking about an in to out swing or vise verse during the process. It's all about releasing the club head for a draw or the hips for the fade. Slicers can't draw the ball, because they think they need to do something with the club. You work the ball with your body, not the club, it's just hanging on for the ride. Watching the final round yesterday at Sherwood, they had trackman setup on one of the par 3's, I forget which one. The hole called for a fade and the commentator described each player trying to get onto their left side to cut the ball, some laboring to do so as a fade is not their natural shot shape. There was no mentioned of club face. Thinking about the club face is why most slicers will never learn to draw the ball...

Lol. Do a little research around here and you will see why your post is so funny. Your swing path will not push your ball out to the right with your club face closed. That is not how it works. The initial direction of your ball is about 80% determined by your club face direction. Your swing path is not going to determine the balls initial direction off the club.

[limoric]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm not going to beat you over the head with this, but you're wrong, and you should read this: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws . Or watch this video (I'll hide in a spoiler for those tired of seeing it):

Simply put: the ball starts generally where the face is pointing and curves away from the path. The path is not the primary determinate of the starting direction of the golf ball.

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I will disagree with the assertion that one cannot start the ball right with a closed club face; at least the perception (or past preconception) that it's closed and that is what I'm really talking about. As you can see by the way I wrote my original reply to the OP, to me it's about feel, the perception created by the brain and the exact same thing can be said about the conventional thinking, despite the fact that scientifically something else is happening. The club face may very well account for 85% of the balls direction at impact, but try to convince Nick Faldo of this; you may be right and he may admit that you're right, but he is not going to stop thinking swing path.

Of course you will agree that it is impossible to work the ball without any account for swing path. Although the science says it accounts for 15%, I'll argue that it accounts for far greater percentage of swing thought.

For the record, I'm not back peddling, I did follow your link and was very surprised to learn about the 85/15 principle. I was also not surprised that pros like Butch Harmon and Nick Faldo subscribe to the old methodology, as does the majority of the golf world today. It seems to me that this science has been around a while, yet very smart hall of fame pros have not adopted the new thinking. Maybe feel is still more important to good players than mechanics???

I think we can also agree that the vast majority of tour pros are going to take a lesson from Butch or Nick before they do from some excited young guy who subscribes to the new science. This said, Sean Foley is making a name for himself and it's not without merit

Again, I'm not saying that the 85/15 principle is not fact, I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me and the majority of the golf world. I also don't think all golfers, regardless of talent can wrap their heads around it. But certainly, those who can put themselves in the write frame of mind would most likely benefit.

So now that the OP knows 85% of the swing accounts for ball direction, he should hopefully be able to work the ball left and right at will within a few weeks.

[limoric]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Lol. Do a little research around here and you will see why your post is so funny.

Your swing path will not push your ball out to the right with your club face closed. That is not how it works. The initial direction of your ball is about 80% determined by your club face direction. Your swing path is not going to determine the balls initial direction off the club.

Thanks for the schooling there Myrtle; If we ever play together, I'll still give you 8 strokes...

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

Lol. Do a little research around here and you will see why your post is so funny.

Your swing path will not push your ball out to the right with your club face closed. That is not how it works. The initial direction of your ball is about 80% determined by your club face direction. Your swing path is not going to determine the balls initial direction off the club.

Once again, the confusion about "Closed to what?", the swingpath or the target line.  I'm sure limoric will get a bunch of "FEEL AIN'T REAL" admonitions, but golf is a feel game for a lot of players.

And I would hesitate to laugh at a guy who, assuming both your handicaps are truthful, would have to give you 3 a side.

[limoric]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Once again, the confusion about "Closed to what?", the swingpath or the target line.  I'm sure limoric will get a bunch of "FEEL AIN'T REAL" admonitions, but golf is a feel game for a lot of players.

And I would hesitate to laugh at a guy who, assuming both your handicaps are truthful, would have to give you 3 a side.

4 strokes a side and it would be at least 5 a side if I could putt worth a $hit. His index would make him a 14 handicap at my home course playing from the proper tees. Hole 8 is a 205 yard par 3 from an elevated tee. You're blocked out from the right (the mountain side gets in the way) and to the left is a gorge; you can only see the right 3rd of the green. Guess where you need to take the ball to land it on the green? over the gorge. It's a fun hole!

You are right, for some it's a feel game and for other it's mechanics. Erik is obviously right about the 85/15 principle, you can't argue with science, but how you get the ball into impact position will be debated for another 500 years!

How much do you think Charles Barkely cares about impact with the face

[luu5]

Originally Posted by limoric

The club face may very well account for 85% of the balls direction at impact, but try to convince Nick Faldo of this; you may be right and he may admit that you're right, but he is not going to stop thinking swing path.

OP is not Nick Faldo but a new golfer who may not have developed "the feel" yet. So there is a chance that he may learn it correctly from the beginning.

[limoric]

Originally Posted by luu5

OP is not Nick Faldo but a new golfer who may not have developed "the feel" yet. So there is a chance that he may learn it correctly from the beginning.

I did not say he was Nick Faldo and your quoting me was not in reference to the OP. You'd know that if you read the entire thread.

All this said, I've been reading the OP's other posts; keep up with the lessons and don't worry about shaping the ball at this point. Good luck

[GaijinGolfer]

Hitting a draw is really simple.  All you need is an in to out path and to have the face be slightly closed to the path.  One way to do this is to set up with a closed stance and to make sure that you start your downswing with the lower body first.

For years I hit a push but lately Ive gotten better at releasing the club properly and now Im hitting draws all day long.  The only problem I have now is that sometime I close the face too much and my draw turns into a bit of a hook.  I tried going to stiff shafts (S300) in my irons and that seems to fix my hooks for the most part, so Im planning to go to stiff shafts in my other clubs too.