Phil's hinge and hold vs pelz short game bible

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by golfjunky0331

No, I'm not hung up on labels but they do seem to help. The way I understand it, the peltz off the back foot dead hands technique works well for a short chip.

The Phil style with a "hinge and hold" is great for a chip with higher ball flight and when you need a sharper angle into the ball, and the utley pivot is good for most chips, and pitches up to 30 yards. I'm no expert in any means but I do like to get as much info on different styles and its nice that there is a forum to ask questions to those who have already spent some time trying out these methods. It's funny because everything does seem to have a label anymore. In putting ...

Left hand low, pendulum, piston, traditional, belly putting. Just to name a few. I do appreciate all the feedback and thanks to all those with different ideas

Except for 1/4, 1/2 and full swings, I don't hear much about Pelz any longer, other than people repudiating his SBST putting stroke. Yeah, it works to a certain degree with a 28 inch putter - the shorter, the better - but you would not be able to play golf due to the back pain. That's where Pelz the scientist ignores the limitations of the human body. lol.

AimPoint has trumped Pelz for green reading.

Putting the ball back in your stance is not a "pelz" technique. People used it before Pelz.

Phil is similar to Utley in many ways - except Phil does a lot of hinging, whereas Utley says it depends on the shot. Phil has more of a weight shift; Utley tends to keep most weight on the front leg - more of a center pivot and goes left on the downswing - it's a mini-swing. they both straighten their right arm through the swing. Both men do not like to move the hands back. As to ball position, you can put the ball anywhere in your stance, depending on what you want the shot to do and the lie.

Each of us have our own path.

Once again, Patience. Find what works for you. It may take months. Get the books, vids, read, spend the spring finding what works for you - in the dirt.

[golfjunky0331]

From Phil's video, his swing key for chipping is to "keep the hands moving toward the target" (hinge hold, etc).  This helps for good contact and to insure your hands are ahead of the ball at contact.  Phil uses ball position in his video to vary the height the ball will come off the club face.  Back=lower trajectory, forward=higher.  I use this somewhat but use more of the Utley technique. Practicing of grass is best, but you can use mats in the winter into a net.  Try to vary the trajectory with ball position but also work on direction.  Put a vertical line on the net and try to hit the line at different heights.

They say you get a false confidence practicing off mats. Is this true and would it be better practicing these techniques off of plywood to give you a closer reality of hard pan.

[Valleygolfer]

Originally Posted by golfjunky0331

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

From Phil's video, his swing key for chipping is to "keep the hands moving toward the target" (hinge hold, etc).  This helps for good contact and to insure your hands are ahead of the ball at contact.  Phil uses ball position in his video to vary the height the ball will come off the club face.  Back=lower trajectory, forward=higher.  I use this somewhat but use more of the Utley technique.

Practicing of grass is best, but you can use mats in the winter into a net.  Try to vary the trajectory with ball position but also work on direction.  Put a vertical line on the net and try to hit the line at different heights.

They say you get a false confidence practicing off mats. Is this true and would it be better practicing these techniques off of plywood to give you a closer reality of hard pan.

It is the length of time the club head is on a consistent lie. A mat you can hit "fat" and still end up seeming like you hit a good shot. Grass is not as forgiving and I don't know that plywood would be helpful at all.

[golfjunky0331]

Yeah I can understand the part about hitting the mat and bouncing the club into the ball, but a lob wedge with little bounce off of plywood I would Think could help you simulate hard pan or a really tight fairway. There would be no room for error. I saw somewhere online someone practiced that way when they were younger to help with tight lies?? Just looking for ideas to practice indoor since there is snow on the ground here in Pa and my wife would be upset if I left for fla in the offseason to practice my chipping :-D

[birlyshirly]

They say you get a false confidence practicing off mats. Is this true?.

I think both yes and no. You can catch the ball a little fat off a mat, and the ball will fly better than it would from grass. On the other hand, I think that if you are really honest with yourself, you can still feel the difference in the quality of strike.

[golfjunky0331]

Good point! And very true, a Matt is better than nothing And I can tell when I hit the Matt first and when my contact Is perfect. I also understand that grass is less forgiving but That's one of the drawbacks of living in the north, can't play Very often during the winter months

[Valleygolfer]

Originally Posted by golfjunky0331

Yeah I can understand the part about hitting the mat and bouncing the club into the ball, but a lob wedge with little bounce off of plywood I would

Think could help you simulate hard pan or a really tight fairway. There would be no room for error. I saw somewhere online someone practiced that way when they were younger to help with tight lies?? Just looking for ideas to practice indoor since there is snow on the ground here in Pa and my wife would be upset if I left for fla in the offseason to practice my chipping

Why do you have to practice hitting off of "hard pan" so badly? Take a piece of painter's tape about 6 inches in length or masking tape and color in with a marker, put the ball at the end of the tape. Then practice hitting, make sure the ball gets up in the air and the tape doesn't get tore up. The marker will show on the sole if you are catching the tape as well.

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

I think both yes and no. You can catch the ball a little fat off a mat, and the ball will fly better than it would from grass. On the other hand, I think that if you are really honest with yourself, you can still feel the difference in the quality of strike.

Exactly.  With a chip, you can tell by sound.  A really hard mat will also act like hard pan.  for a pitch, you are using the bounce anyway.  You can also tell by the height the ball goes if you are hitting into a net.  It is much better to practice off a mat than not at all in these freezing New England winters!!!

[Mr. Desmond]

Well, the good thing is that these short game shots don't need a full swing, so less room is required. You could put a mat or carpet down in a room, get some Almost Golf Balls, and work on that new technique until the thaw.

[golfjunky0331]

I guess hard pan is the hardest lie that I have trouble hitting from and a lot of the public courses we play get tore up and your either hitting from really short grass fairway or dirt. From a fluffy lie I'm pretty consistent. Figure if you can get consistent off hard pan lies everything else will be much easier, except of course the extreme rough.

[Valleygolfer]

I don't think that is the way you should go about it imho but do what ever you think you need to do. I think the "saucer toss" would be better on hard pan than trying to hinge and hold on it. I think I would spring a few more bux and find a track that waters the grass...

[golfjunky0331]

I'm using a Matt right now indoors and seem to be having good contact with quiet hands, ball in center of stance with a nice smoothe pivot. For now I'm just going to get comfortable with this and see how the transition is to grass in a couple of months or sooner weather permitting.