What's wrong with hitting it straight?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And that tilt is caused by adding a lateral force vector (or sidespin) to the back spin.  Since a solid object can't spin in 2 directions at once, the combination of backspin and sidespin creates a tilt in the spin axis.  The more lateral force that's applied, the more tilt in the axis, ultimately resulting in drastic hooks and slices.

Rick, I know what you're trying to say, but no, there's no such thing as "sidespin" nor is there really a "combination" of them. It's just one spin, that's tilted most of the time. It's still convenient to think about sidespin though, but less so than spin axis. Is 250 RPM side spin a lot? If you're only talking about 2500 total spin, yeah. If you're talking about 7500, no. "Sidespin" is just the spin axis converted to two components. So you're both right, but again, there's really no such thing as "sidespin." It's just a sometimes (increasingly less so) convenient way to imagine spin or describe a shot.

By your reasoning, unless you make a perfectly straight swing, there is no such thing as pure backspin either.  The spin axis will always be tilted, so I guess you'd have to call it a vector spin, the angle of which is determined by a combination of the swing plane and clubface angle at impact.

[SCfanatic35]

My game is getting better each month, mostly because I have been playing a lot and been getting more consistent. I was at a 24.3 on my H.I. about 6 months ago, now it's down to 19.1.

Should I start learning how to hit a draw or a fade, if so which one is easier to learn? Or should I just keep worrying about making my swing better and then one of them will just happen naturally?  My longterm goal is to shoot consistently in the 70's and low 80's.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

My game is getting better each month, mostly because I have been playing a lot and been getting more consistent. I was at a 24.3 on my H.I. about 6 months ago, now it's down to 19.1.

Should I start learning how to hit a draw or a fade, if so which one is easier to learn? Or should I just keep worrying about making my swing better and then one of them will just happen naturally?  My longterm goal is to shoot consistently in the 70's and low 80's.

Nice!

I'd listen to your brother on that one. He's on the right track. Although, maybe he doesn't want you to beat him, so maybe he can't be trusted

Getting lessons from a very good instructor would be the way to go. And then practicing a lot.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Nice!

I'd listen to your brother on that one. He's on the right track. Although, maybe he doesn't want you to beat him, so maybe he can't be trusted

I have actually come close recently. We played at my home course during Christmas time and I tied him, we both shot 96.  At our last GCAM tournament that we both played in I lost to him by 1. He shot a 90 and I shot a 91.  When I beat him, it's going to be mardi gras, new years, 4th of July all in one.

He does have some good tips for me.  I am waiting til after my next tournament, tomorrow, before I really try and do some of the ideas. I think the easiest one for me is to focus on my left arm staying straight.

[Beachcomber]

You should really consider Evolvr - they will take a look at your swing.  And get you to playing better than you ever thought was possible.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

You should really consider Evolvr - they will take a look at your swing.  And get you to playing better than you ever thought was possible.

Yea, I'm an evolvr member too. So is your brother. Oops, I think I just gave away a secret

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

You should really consider Evolvr - they will take a look at your swing.  And get you to playing better than you ever thought was possible.

What is that?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Jetfan, your whole post was great, but I just want to elaborate on one part.  When I get this question, the answer always seems really straightforward in my head, it just never comes out that way.  But let's try it again with an example:

Of course, if you play a draw or a fade you can miss both ways, however, to miss one of the ways, you really have to miss.  If you are trying to hit it straight, you aim down the center of the fairway and you have 1/2 of the fairway to miss on either side and still be OK.  (And because it's virtually impossible to hit it straight, then you don't know where it's going to go)  If you play a draw - just to pick one - and you are reasonably confident in said draw, then you are eliminating the right side of the course because now you can aim down the left side of the fairway.  If it draws like you planned, a little less than planned, or even if you block it and hit a straight push, then you are still in the fairway.  The only way to miss the fairway (without making a really bad swing and hitting a push-cut) is to over-draw it.  And course management can factor in to help you keep yourself out of trouble in these cases, obviously you wouldn't aim down the left side of the fairway if there is trouble left, as one example.

I believe that there is a thread on here that Erik started about "shot cones" that much better explains what I'm eluding to above.  One of the simplified axioms regarding playing a draw or a fade is that your ball will usually be curving towards your target, whereas if you aim at your target and try to hit it straight, your ball is pretty much guaranteed to be curving away from your target.

Just to clarify, you really meant that with a draw you aim down the right side of the fairway, right?  Otherwise if you aim down the left the draw will put you in the rough.  Or worse.

I play a draw and my standard setup on the tee is to tee it on the left side of the teeing ground and aim at the 100 yard bush on the right edge of the fairway.  So a straight ball on line will put me on the right side of the fairway (because I can rarely reach the 100 yard bush and the rough on that side) and if my ball draws as expected I should be in the center or left side of the fairway.  I "should"only miss the fairway if I hit a straight push (right rough - or trees) or if I overcook the draw (left rough - or trees).  Both of which still happen too often.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

What is that?

The guys who run this site - they are instructors over at Evolvr.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Just to clarify, you really meant that with a draw you aim down the right side of the fairway, right?  Otherwise if you aim down the left the draw will put you in the rough.  Or worse.

I play a draw and my standard setup on the tee is to tee it on the left side of the teeing ground and aim at the 100 yard bush on the right edge of the fairway.  So a straight ball on line will put me on the right side of the fairway (because I can rarely reach the 100 yard bush and the rough on that side) and if my ball draws as expected I should be in the center or left side of the fairway.  I "should"only miss the fairway if I hit a straight push (right rough - or trees) or if I overcook the draw (left rough - or trees).  Both of which still happen too often.

You are right.  Aiming left - hitting a draw... You'd be left of left and look like this...

[JetFan1983]

Lol. ^^^ That looks familiar (me). A small part of my soul dies every time I hit that shot.

[mvmac]

Ben Hogan quote, "You only hit a straight ball by accident. The ball is going to move right or left every time you hit it, so you had better make it go one way or the other".

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

Should I start learning how to hit a draw or a fade, if so which one is easier to learn? Or should I just keep worrying about making my swing better and then one of them will just happen naturally?  My longterm goal is to shoot consistently in the 70's and low 80's.

To answer you question I going to share something Dave Wedzik posted on FB the other day.  "With the ball on the ground it is hit before low point (so club is still moving "out") so the draw makes "sense". That said, I don't have a huge preference. Really depends on the player."  So if you start seeing the ball draw you're probably doing something right.  A lot of good players that fade it do it by just aiming a little left at address.  Basically pre-set their path a little left.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The guys who run this site - they are instructors over at Evolvr.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

Thanks, I will look into that.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Ben Hogan quote, "You only hit a straight ball by accident. The ball is going to move right or left every time you hit it, so you had better make it go one way or the other".

To answer you question I going to share something Dave Wedzik posted on FB the other day.  "With the ball on the ground it is hit before low point (so club is still moving "out") so the draw makes "sense". That said, I don't have a huge preference. Really depends on the player."  So if you start seeing the ball draw you're probably doing something right.  A lot of good players that fade it do it by just aiming a little left at address.  Basically pre-set their path a little left.

Thanks, as well.  I'm so used to hitting it straight, that when it does occasionally draw it feels like I mishit it.  Your saying the opposite, that 90% of my shots are mishits and the 10% that it draws was actually the better shot. I wish I knew how I was drawing it so I could repeat it. They are so few that it's hard to know why it happens.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The guys who run this site - they are instructors over at Evolvr.

http://evolvr.thegolfevolution.com/

It all makes sense now. I assumed my brother was referring to this forum when he said he gets feedback on his swing.  I didn't realize it was a different site.  I'm sure he told me but it didn't sink in until now.  That's a pretty cool way to get help with your swing and it's a lot cheaper than private lessons.

[CraiginKSA]

A general observation about draws travelling farther that fades:  Fairway bunkers on the right side are typically closer than the ones on the left.  That way, the bunkers are more likely to catch a fade or draw.  That's why lefties have a built in advantage - the draw will end up past the bunker on the right and short of the bunker on the left!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

Thanks, I will look into that.

Thanks, as well.  I'm so used to hitting it straight, that when it does occasionally draw it feels like I mishit it.  Your saying the opposite, that 90% of my shots are mishits and the 10% that it draws was actually the better shot. I wish I knew how I was drawing it so I could repeat it. They are so few that it's hard to know why it happens.

Not necessarily, you can draw just by hitting it more towards the toe, gear effect.  So you may be correct, do you miss it towards the toe?

This would be a good thread to check out

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61391/shaping-the-ball

[logman]

Jetfan, the protracer stuff is great eyecandy but I'm not really sure about what it's significance really is. I know my views on this stuff are unpopular on this site but at the risk of another ban here goes. Just about all of those shots are performed by pro golfers at the peak of their powers and the wisdom here is "do as the pros do". I think that's flawed logic, but that's a discussion for some other time.

Yes the ball will move in the air, nothing is dead straight, but that argument seems to miss the point.

When I hit the driver I'm looking for neutral flight......sometimes it's pretty straight, sometimes a fade, a little bit high, a bit of a draw, etc etc. I'm not that good a golfer that I know exactly what's going to happen. And I reckon most 10 to 20 handicappers are in the same boat.

All I want is not too much of anything. All I'm looking for is to keep it on the fairway and keep it neutral. My big decisions about my driver are where the wind is blowing from and what is the slope of the fairway.

Today I hit 12 fairways and missed 2. but the shots included 1 nice draw, 1 blocked left, 1 super high pull, 1 drag to the right, 1 fade..........but they were all in play because I made a judgement about wind and kicks off banks and slopes etc. My point is, neutrality of ball flight is my aim.

Also, you'll notice on the protracer that nearly all of the shots hit fall straight down after drawing of fading. Lucius Wooding pointed out on another thread that the swing speed of pros allows them to hit the ball on a lower trajectory with enough spin and still have the ball drop at a steep angle to the ground. This is what you see on the protracer. So what happens when you shape the ball with a slower club head speed. Would the ball still be drawing or fading when it hit the ground?

Also, to hit these controlled shapes the player needs to aim properly. It sounds stupid, but how many times have you stood behind someone and they've driven the ball exactly where they were aiming it.......straight into the trees on the left. They thought they were lined up just right, but they weren't. Now add a shape on top of that.

Wouldn't a better approach be to aim in an area, a general area of 10 or so meters wide and try to hit a neutral shot into it.

Also(still awake?) "overcooking". I see my swing in 2 major elements, the clubs path and my hands. If I hit in to out with a slightly closed face, I'll hit a draw, if my path is straight with a closed face....Im in the scrub......To me, I find it very difficult to make fine judgements about either of the two elements. And remembering that the combination of the 2 is where the danger lies. So I'm going for neutral path and neutral hands. Sure there's a bit of hit and hope in there but it's an educated guess if you know what I mean.

That's all I can think of ....so far

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by logman

Also(still awake?) "overcooking". I see my swing in 2 major elements, the clubs path and my hands. If I hit in to out with a slightly closed face, I'll hit a draw, if my path is straight with a closed face....Im in the scrub......To me, I find it very difficult to make fine judgements about either of the two elements. And remembering that the combination of the 2 is where the danger lies. So I'm going for neutral path and neutral hands. Sure there's a bit of hit and hope in there but it's an educated guess if you know what I mean.

Let's say your normal ball flight is a draw so you aim down the right side of the fairway with the idea of drawing it back to the middle, but close the clubface at impact and hit it into the scrub. If instead your normal ball flight is straight then if you close the clubface by the same amount as the person drawing the ball, your ball will end up just as far into the scrub.

Basically whatever shot shape you're aiming for (club path), and whatever face angle you're trying to achieve, variations in either will miss by the same amount regardless of your initial aims. So aiming for neutral doesn't reduce your risk at all.