What's wrong with hitting it straight?

[14ledo81]

It all makes sense now. I assumed my brother was referring to this forum when he said he gets feedback on his swing.  I didn't realize it was a different site.  I'm sure he told me but it didn't sink in until now.  That's a pretty cool way to get help with your swing and it's a lot cheaper than private lessons.

Now I'm curious. Who is your brother?

[logman]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Let's say your normal ball flight is a draw so you aim down the right side of the fairway with the idea of drawing it back to the middle, but close the clubface at impact and hit it into the scrub. If instead your normal ball flight is straight then if you close the clubface by the same amount as the person drawing the ball, your ball will end up just as far into the scrub.

Basically whatever shot shape you're aiming for (club path), and whatever face angle you're trying to achieve, variations in either will miss by the same amount regardless of your initial aims. So aiming for neutral doesn't reduce your risk at all.

Yes but, If I hit down the left side(lefthander) for my expected draw, a block, a fade and a draw are still well within my repertoir. If I go down the middle and neutral everything,  i've got Fade....left rough. Block , straight shot.....yeehaa. draw....right rough.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by logman

Yes but, If I hit down the left side(lefthander) for my expected draw, a block, a fade and a draw are still well within my repertoir. If I go down the middle and neutral everything,  i've got Fade....left rough. Block , straight shot.....yeehaa. draw....right rough.

As a left hander, if you aim straight your playable shots are a fade (left rough), straight (fairway), or draw (right rough). As a left hander playing a draw your playable shots are a block (left rough), a draw (fairway) or a hook (right rough). It's no different. The player hitting a draw who hits a fade (lost left) is the same as when you hit the big slice and lose it left.

[boogielicious]

SCfanatic35,

If you can, have someone stand behind you during a range season and note the path of each shot you take.  They can indicate direction versus your set up and ball curve .  It is tough to do this on your own because you may perceive it as straight, but it may curve slightly.  This will help you with your shot cone and give you and idea of how much dispersion you have on your shots. It will also tell you whether you are in to out with your swing and the face relation to path at impact.

Do several clubs from driver down to wedges. For set up, use an alignment stick and set your feet to the same spot each time.  Practice your set up too, so it is repeatable on the course.

When you play on a course, you will take this knowledge with you and generally set up for each shot with your tendencies (shot cone).  This will help keep the ball in play and hit more greens. Keep in mind that the way the ball lies may also affect your shot (i.e. above or below feet, up hill and down hill lies, rough versus fairway).

Let us know how this goes for you this year.  We are all trying to help each other get better.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

By your reasoning, unless you make a perfectly straight swing, there is no such thing as pure backspin either.  The spin axis will always be tilted, so I guess you'd have to call it a vector spin, the angle of which is determined by a combination of the swing plane and clubface angle at impact.

That's correct. There's only one spin on a golf ball, and the spin axis is almost always tilted to some degree or another. I don't have to call it vector spin. It's just spin.

Which is why I said almost exactly that:

Originally Posted by iacas

Rick, I know what you're trying to say, but no, there's no such thing as "sidespin" nor is there really a "combination" of them. It's just one spin, that's tilted most of the time.

Moving on...

Originally Posted by logman

Jetfan, the protracer stuff is great eyecandy but I'm not really sure about what it's significance really is. I know my views on this stuff are unpopular on this site but at the risk of another ban here goes. Just about all of those shots are performed by pro golfers at the peak of their powers and the wisdom here is "do as the pros do". I think that's flawed logic, but that's a discussion for some other time.

Rupert, stop playing the "I'll be banned for disagreeing card." You were threatened with a ban because, to put it bluntly, the manner in which you disagreed was incredibly *******-ish. We have never banned anyone for disagreeing and never will. We have banned people for lying or being *******s. So knock it off.

To answer the above, it's very simple: "pros" need to obey the same laws of physics as everyone else. They may hit the ball higher or farther or faster, but the laws that govern ball flight are the same for them as they are for "regular" golfers. The ProTracer stuff illustrates ball-flight, both the good and the bad ones. The good ones start right and draw back (or left and fade back) for right-handed golfers.

Originally Posted by logman

When I hit the driver I'm looking for neutral flight......sometimes it's pretty straight, sometimes a fade, a little bit high, a bit of a draw, etc etc. I'm not that good a golfer that I know exactly what's going to happen. And I reckon most 10 to 20 handicappers are in the same boat.

I disagree. I think most golfers have the same shape to most of their shots (when they hit it reasonably solidly). Most 10s to 20s aren't hitting the ball "pretty straight" and fading and drawing it equally.

Originally Posted by logman

Wouldn't a better approach be to aim in an area, a general area of 10 or so meters wide and try to hit a neutral shot into it.

Find me the masses of 15 handicappers that have a "neutral" shape to their shots and then we can talk.

Originally Posted by logman

Also(still awake?) "overcooking". I see my swing in 2 major elements, the clubs path and my hands. If I hit in to out with a slightly closed face, I'll hit a draw, if my path is straight with a closed face....Im in the scrub......To me, I find it very difficult to make fine judgements about either of the two elements. And remembering that the combination of the 2 is where the danger lies. So I'm going for neutral path and neutral hands. Sure there's a bit of hit and hope in there but it's an educated guess if you know what I mean.

Those are your feels, and they aren't real: if the clubface is pointing in the same direction in both of those examples, the one with the in-to-out path is the worse of the two shots.

[Oceanvue]

My understanding: By cutting a fade with an open face will impart more spin and a higher flight path then as opposed to coming outside or or snapping the face closed to produce a draw and a lower flight path less side spin and a lower trajectory thus more run. Guys who hit draws end up down the airway further then guys who hit fades (I think we all know that). I've been working on shaping my shots lately, and for me, to get back down into the single digits after a long layoff it's going to be important. By the way equipment hsa changed dramatically in the last 10 years

[Fourputt]

Something I'm going to throw out (and my lack of ever worrying about the technical aspects of the swing will probably show), but I think that there is some confusion is some minds as to just what "open" and "closed" means.  Those terms only have meaning in relation to the path the club is taking at impact.  Opening the face address is meaningless unless you return it to the ball in the same position.  You can think that you have set up for a draw by closing the face at a address, but if you then strike the ball out to in, you will actually hit the ball with the clubface square to the swing path, and the ball will go straight (more or less) in the direction which the face is pointed.

If you set up aimed to the right of the target trying to play a draw with an in to out swing, then fail to release properly and don't square the clubface at impact, you will hit the ball straight right on the line of the swing path - no slice, no draw, just a shot that flies straight right of the target.  If you leave the face a bit more open then the ball will start right of the intended line and fade or slice even farther right.

Be gentle with me, as I'm not that technically into the golf swing.  This may be an oversimplification, or just plain wrong.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Now I'm curious. Who is your brother?

Golfingdad

Originally Posted by boogielicious

SCfanatic35,

If you can, have someone stand behind you during a range season and note the path of each shot you take.  They can indicate direction versus your set up and ball curve.  It is tough to do this on your own because you may perceive it as straight, but it may curve slightly.  This will help you with your shot cone and give you and idea of how much dispersion you have on your shots. It will also tell you whether you are in to out with your swing and the face relation to path at impact.

Do several clubs from driver down to wedges. For set up, use an alignment stick and set your feet to the same spot each time.  Practice your set up too, so it is repeatable on the course.

When you play on a course, you will take this knowledge with you and generally set up for each shot with your tendencies (shot cone).  This will help keep the ball in play and hit more greens. Keep in mind that the way the ball lies may also affect your shot (i.e. above or below feet, up hill and down hill lies, rough versus fairway).

Let us know how this goes for you this year.  We are all trying to help each other get better.

Thanks, I will try that.  I'm willing to try anything.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Something I'm going to throw out (and my lack of ever worrying about the technical aspects of the swing will probably show), but I think that there is some confusion is some minds as to just what "open" and "closed" means.  Those terms only have meaning in relation to the path the club is taking at impact.  Opening the face address is meaningless unless you return it to the ball in the same position.  You can think that you have set up for a draw by closing the face at a address, but if you then strike the ball out to in, you will actually hit the ball with the clubface square to the swing path, and the ball will go straight (more or less) in the direction which the face is pointed.

If you set up aimed to the right of the target trying to play a draw with an in to out swing, then fail to release properly and don't square the clubface at impact, you will hit the ball straight right on the line of the swing path - no slice, no draw, just a shot that flies straight right of the target.  If you leave the face a bit more open then the ball will start right of the intended line and fade or slice even farther right.

Be gentle with me, as I'm not that technically into the golf swing.  This may be an oversimplification, or just plain wrong.

Sounds logical to me.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Just to clarify, you really meant that with a draw you aim down the right side of the fairway, right?  Otherwise if you aim down the left the draw will put you in the rough.  Or worse.

I play a draw and my standard setup on the tee is to tee it on the left side of the teeing ground and aim at the 100 yard bush on the right edge of the fairway.  So a straight ball on line will put me on the right side of the fairway (because I can rarely reach the 100 yard bush and the rough on that side) and if my ball draws as expected I should be in the center or left side of the fairway.  I "should"only miss the fairway if I hit a straight push (right rough - or trees) or if I overcook the draw (left rough - or trees).  Both of which still happen too often.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

You are right.  Aiming left - hitting a draw... You'd be left of left and look like this...

I think it might just be a slight miscommunication on my part here.  I stated it exactly how I meant - aim down left side - but I didn't specify two other important factors.  I'm talking specifically about a push-draw AND by "aim" I'm talking about where I want it to finish, not my start line.  Basically, for an ideal shot I am imagining the very first image in Erik's OP of this aforementioned thread: http://thesandtrap.com/t/39974/shot-cones/0_30

Another important factor ... MY misses tend to be more straight pushes than overdraws. :)  (The fourth image-first row)  Big misses tend more towards last image on the right of the second row (big push)  than they do the first image on the left of the second row. (overdraw)

Hopefully that clarifies my thought process. :)

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

It all makes sense now. I assumed my brother was referring to this forum when he said he gets feedback on his swing.  I didn't realize it was a different site.  I'm sure he told me but it didn't sink in until now.  That's a pretty cool way to get help with your swing and it's a lot cheaper than private lessons.

Yeah.  I was bugging you to join both sites, but just to elaborate slightly ... here you can get some good free advice from various sources (some very credible, some I have no idea who they are :)) but on Evolvr you are only getting expert instruction from good teachers who follow the 5SK philosophy.  (For a very reasonable price too!)  So if you ever get a decent camera (I'm starting to realize that the iPhone isn't the best, but it's what I have for now) and a tripod that you are willing to bring to the range with you and film yourself every couple of weeks or so, then you will have expert coaching basically "on call" through evolvr. :)

[GaijinGolfer]

Hitting it straight isnt a reliable shot because no one, not even the pros, can do it consistently.  Playing a draw or fade is a much more reliable shot.

[NM Golf]

One of the things I had to do to finally lose those last few strokes off my handicap was to learn to only miss the ball in one direction. I try to only hit a fade so I set up down the left side of the fairway on almost every shot with the driver. If I hit it straight I am fine, if I hit my stock shot which is a fade I am in the middle if the fairway. If I hit a big cut then I am on the right side of the fairway. All I guard against is any type of right to left ball flight. Lee Trevino said it best, "You can talk to a slice but a hook won't listen."

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Oceanvue

My understanding: By cutting a fade with an open face will impart more spin and a higher flight path then as opposed to coming outside or or snapping the face closed to produce a draw and a lower flight path less side spin and a lower trajectory thus more run. Guys who hit draws end up down the airway further then guys who hit fades (I think we all know that). I've been working on shaping my shots lately, and for me, to get back down into the single digits after a long layoff it's going to be important. By the way equipment hsa changed dramatically in the last 10 years

No, we don't all know that because it simply isn't true :)

A fade is is not a weak shot...a high right slice is.

Do you guys NOT watch Tiger Woods hit fades further than other guys in his group?  Do you NOT see him hit 300 yard fades?

A fade and a draw are the same shot, in simple terms, on either side of the target line.  One is no different than the other in anything other than the curve.

[logman]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

For those of you who like this type of stuff and would like to play around with and learn more about it, play with this flightscope program that offers simulations on trajectory:

http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html

Just an aside to whether to aim for the middle or not. Some of the ball flights we see here have a tendency to start with quite a strong curve that works back towards the target in decreasing curviness then drops like a stone....straight down. Some of the initial starting lines are way off to one side or the other but the curve seems to moderate then go vertical. the snedeker one is a good example.

Over the years I've observed lots of amateur players and I've noticed that "shapers" tend to get into trouble when their shaped ball hits the ground. It seems to me that the protracer stuff is concentrating on guys that hit irons with high speed and high spin. Most golfers don't hit with the same spin or speed, so what (i think) I've seen from amateurs is the ball still curving as it hits the ground. Its like the snedeker shot cut short by about 30 meters. So I went to the flightscope simulator, and maybe it's not sophisticated enough to deal with decaying spin numbers(I'm assuming that's what makes the curve reduce and the ball eventually drop like a stone). But anyway, is my reasoning correct. Do you need to be hitting your 5 iron at high speed and high spin to get that steep drop effect?

[Oceanvue]

Paradox..Google is your friend get to know him: Here's a good explanation and yes Tiger Woods hits a ball a long way

In order for a golf ball to fade or slice the ball must be stuck with a clubface that is open to the swingpath. By contrast a draw or hook is struck with a clubface which is closed to the path.
A clubface which is open to the swingpath will result in more backspin being imparted at impact whereas a clubface which is closed to the swingpath essentially means the clubface is delofted, resulting in less backspin being applied

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Oceanvue

Paradox..Google is your friend get to know him: Here's a good explanation and yes Tiger Woods hits a ball a long way

In order for a golf ball to fade or slice the ball must be stuck with a clubface that is open to the swingpath. By contrast a draw or hook is struck with a clubface which is closed to the path.

A clubface which is open to the swingpath will result in more backspin being imparted at impact whereas a clubface which is closed to the swingpath essentially means the clubface is delofted, resulting in less backspin being applied

The problem is those bits about the amount of "backspin" aren't necessarily true.

I can have a clubface pointing right and a path farther to the right to produce a draw, and a face pointing left with a path farther left to produce a cut. If my stance is the same (say, square to the target) in both situations, the pull-fade would have less left than the push-draw, if the amount of shaft lean is equal.

It's not that simple.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Oceanvue

Paradox..Google is your friend get to know him: Here's a good explanation and yes Tiger Woods hits a ball a long way

In order for a golf ball to fade or slice the ball must be stuck with a clubface that is open to the swingpath. By contrast a draw or hook is struck with a clubface which is closed to the path.

A clubface which is open to the swingpath will result in more backspin being imparted at impact whereas a clubface which is closed to the swingpath essentially means the clubface is delofted, resulting in less backspin being applied

But that's ignoring where the target is. A push drawer of the golf ball will strike the ball with the clubface more open to the target (but still closed to the swing path) than a pull fader. All else being equal the pull fader will have less loft and thus impart less spin.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Oceanvue

Paradox..Google is your friend get to know him: Here's a good explanation and yes Tiger Woods hits a ball a long way

In order for a golf ball to fade or slice the ball must be stuck with a clubface that is open to the swingpath. By contrast a draw or hook is struck with a clubface which is closed to the path.

A clubface which is open to the swingpath will result in more backspin being imparted at impact whereas a clubface which is closed to the swingpath essentially means the clubface is delofted, resulting in less backspin being applied

Physics is my best friend..YOU should get to know him :)

There is simply NO real world evidence or proof that suggests a fade travels less distance than a draw.

a fade swing can have a clubface with less dynamic loft on it than a draw swing and vice versa.  Its not a concrete situation.

[Oceanvue]

You should have Physics introduce you to Reality.