The Relative Importance of the Backswing

[jcjim]

Did you see this post?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64803/the-relative-importance-of-the-backswing#post_1190653

Those golfers you mentioned aren't doing anything massively different from one another. It's not like one guy has his left shoulder higher at the top or is only turning his shoulders 60 degrees or is moving his head a foot off the ball.

Well I stick with what I know to be true...  in professionals there are massive differences in backswings yet impact in all these different backswings are almost all identical...

People are all different sizes..arms ..legs...torso...flexability... ages .. Many are unable to get into the so called correct top of the backswing...but all can get into the correct impact...

If you believe that the backswing is more important than impact then that's what you believe...Have a good one

[mvmac]

Well I stick with what I know to be true...  in professionals there are massive differences in backswings yet impact in all these different backswings are almost all identical...

While there are obvious differences I wouldn't call them massive, like I said, both pivots are centered, both are turning their torsos about 90 degrees to their address bend. The big, important pieces are similar.

yet impact in all these different backswings are almost all identical...

Impact isn't identical for the pros.

But they do all have their weight 85-95% forward with a shaft that lines up with their lead arm.

If you believe that the backswing is more important than impact then that's what you believe...Have a good one

Show me where I said that.

I said the backswing is important and can have an effect on the downswing.

[Phil McGleno]

Well I stick with what I know to be true...  in professionals there are massive differences in backswings yet impact in all these different backswings are almost all identical... People are all different sizes..arms ..legs...torso...flexability... ages .. Many are unable to get into the so called correct top of the backswing...but all can get into the correct impact...

What you think is true is wrong.-No secret that impact is important but a crappy backswing can result in a crappy downswing.

[jcjim]

What you think is true is wrong.-No secret that impact is important but a crappy backswing can result in a crappy downswing.

My position is this..

1. There is no position more important than impact..

2. One can have a lousy backswing and if he recovers at impact the backswing is meaningless...

Finally what I think... which is above is absolutely correct...Have a good one

[mvmac]

My position is this..

1. There is no position more important than impact..

2. One can have a lousy backswing and if he recovers at impact the backswing is meaningless...

Nobody is going to disagree with you on that and it's not the point of the discussion.

The problem is a lot of golfers can't always recover. The backswing can matter a great deal. I've yet to see a player shift their hips and head back, turn less than 90 then "recover" and produces good impact alignments.

The better the player, the better their backswing tends to be, they have less to "recover" from on the downswing.

A player like Jim Furyk doesn't have a lousy backswing.

[Mr. Desmond]

My position is this..

1. There is no position more important than impact..

2. One can have a lousy backswing and if he recovers at impact the backswing is meaningless...

Finally what I think... which is above is absolutely correct...Have a good one

What does recovery mean? Does it mean the ability to make contact after a lousy backswing?

If yes, what if all of those compensations to get back to impact cause you to lose speed?

Is that lousy backswing still good, or do you want to make less compensations?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcjim

My position is this..

1. There is no position more important than impact..

2. One can have a lousy backswing and if he recovers at impact the backswing is meaningless...

Finally what I think... which is above is absolutely correct...Have a good one

What does recovery mean? Does it mean the ability to make contact after a lousy backswing?

If yes, what if all of those compensations to get back to impact cause you to lose speed?

Is that lousy backswing still good, or do you want to make less compensations?

I'm not sure if this covers all the possible cases? I would have to assume he means a back swing that's lousy and does not cause any loss of speed?

It's interesting that in the video in the OP that the first compensated swing on the right cause a loss of about 9 yards, and yet the "pull" example of the second swing on the right demonstrates an 8 yard gain. Bad direction, but a higher swing speed. This tells me that loss of speed is not necessarily such a bad thing in all cases, if, for instance, that it gives you the swing on the left (straight, normal) versus the second swing on the right (pull)?

[Mr. Desmond]

I'm not sure if this covers all the possible cases? I would have to assume he means a back swing that's lousy and does not cause any loss of speed?

It's interesting that in the video in the OP that the first compensated swing on the right cause a loss of about 9 yards, and yet the "pull" example of the second swing on the right demonstrates an 8 yard gain. Bad direction, but a higher swing speed. This tells me that loss of speed is not necessarily such a bad thing in all cases, if, for instance, that it gives you the swing on the left (straight, normal) versus the second swing on the right (pull)?

I'm talkin' in general.....

[mvmac]

I'm not sure if this covers all the possible cases? I would have to assume he means a back swing that's lousy and does not cause any loss of speed?

By "recover" I assume @jcjim means the player can still consistently hit the ball solid, still achieve Keys 2-4.

It's interesting that in the video in the OP that the first compensated swing on the right cause a loss of about 9 yards, and yet the "pull" example of the second swing on the right demonstrates an 8 yard gain. Bad direction, but a higher swing speed. This tells me that loss of speed is not necessarily such a bad thing in all cases, if, for instance, that it gives you the swing on the left (straight, normal) versus the second swing on the right (pull)?

The yardage difference probably had more to do with the dynamic loft change (pull alignments) than a speed change.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

It's interesting that in the video in the OP that the first compensated swing on the right cause a loss of about 9 yards, and yet the "pull" example of the second swing on the right demonstrates an 8 yard gain. Bad direction, but a higher swing speed. This tells me that loss of speed is not necessarily such a bad thing in all cases, if, for instance, that it gives you the swing on the left (straight, normal) versus the second swing on the right (pull)?

The yardage difference probably had more to do with the dynamic loft change (pull alignments) than a speed change.

I didn't notice that, that makes some sense. 2mph doesn't equal 8 yards.

[DrvFrShow]

I have noticed that if I pull a shot, while it may go further, the trajectory is typically lower. It will land harder and roll further. Not necessarily a good thing especially if I'm trying to hit one that I want to hop and stop. But this is OT.

[Lihu]

I have noticed that if I pull a shot, while it may go further, the trajectory is typically lower. It will land harder and roll further. Not necessarily a good thing especially if I'm trying to hit one that I want to hop and stop. But this is OT.

Seems like his shot's a little lower too.

[mvmac]

Yes pulls typically go lower due to where the face is aiming at impact, left of the body for a righty, takes some loft off the club.

[jcjim]

Nobody is going to disagree with you on that and it's not the point of the discussion.

I thought the discussion was about the importance of the backswing?

The problem is a lot of golfers can't always recover. The backswing can matter a great deal. I've yet to see a player shift their hips and head back, turn less than 90 then "recover" and produces good impact alignments.

Sure the majority of golfers don't recover...my point was the ones that did recover and had a lousy backswing need to leave the backswing alone rather than screw with it and lose impact..

The better the player, the better their backswing tends to be, they have less to "recover" from on the downswing.

I've seen single digit players that move laterally way off the ball in the backswing then move back and play good golf...I've seen players that don't turn their shoulders 50 degrees and play good golf...I've seen players that pull the club so inside there club is behind them and recover...I've seen players that were lined up almost 20 degrees right of the target and hit it straight...on and on and on...I could fill 10 pages with examples...this all plays into what I've been saying impact is the key and however you get to it relates to your flexability and build...

..

A player like Jim Furyk doesn't have a lousy backswing

Agreed Furyk doesn't have a lousy backswing but if you have a player that scored a average of 100 with Furyks  backswing most everyone would say he has a lousy backswing..

I have a friend that swings back and lays his right hand on his right shoulder..both forearms and upper arms are against each other...he uses his releasing of his arms as a lever..then he spins out with his hips.... he's always in the mid 70's..

On gifted players getting into a good position at the top is something to shoot for but the average guy that doesn't have the flexability it isn't by far the most important thing..

[jcjim]

What does recovery mean? Does it mean the ability to make contact after a lousy backswing?

Recovery is when one is able to return to a proper impact position that produces the shot one wishes...even in light that the backswing has had compensations that need to take place to accomplish it...

If yes, what if all of those compensations to get back to impact cause you to lose speed?

You work on things that could increase swing speed without losing you correct impact position..

Is that lousy backswing still good, or do you want to make less compensation

Trying to change someones compensations without effecting a correct impact position could be very difficult..

without a guaranteed success..

I get the feeling from your posts that you are trying to get me to say something that is wrong so you can have

something to argue about...

I'll say it again I believe impact is by far the most important position in the swing and however you get to it

is up to you to learn what works for you to achieve it...

[mvmac]

Fixed your posts for you @jcjim . Please quote and multi-quote properly, thanks.

I thought the discussion was about the importance of the backswing?

Right and you're talking about how impact is most important, that's obvious. A golfer working on a better downswing and a golfer working on a better backswing have the same goal in mind, producing better impact alignments.

I've seen single digit players that move laterally way off the ball in the backswing then move back and play good golf...I've seen players that don't turn their shoulders 50 degrees and play good golf...I've seen players that pull the club so inside there club is behind them and recover...I've seen players that were lined up almost 20 degrees right of the target and hit it straight...on and on and on...I could fill 10 pages with examples...this all plays into what I've been saying impact is the key and however you get to it relates to your flexability and build...

I'd like to see some video of these guys, especially the guy that can't turn 50 degrees

Typically the better the player the more Keys they "own". Most single digits are going to do well with keeping their head steady because it makes it easier to hit the ball solid. Moving off the ball creates more problems and compensations.

This is data from over 1,000 golfers.

[jcjim]

Fixed your posts for you @jcjim. Please quote and multi-quote properly, thanks.

Right and you're talking about how impact is most important, that's obvious. A golfer working on a better downswing and a golfer working on a better backswing have the same goal in mind, producing better impact alignments.

I'd like to see some video of these guys, especially the guy that can't turn 50 degrees

Typically the better the player the more Keys they "own". Most single digits are going to do well with keeping their head steady because it makes it easier to hit the ball solid. Moving off the ball creates more problems and compensations.

This is data from over 1,000 golfers.

Thanks Moderator for fixing my posts I'm new and need to fiqure it all out....

mvmac...You know there's no doubt that a good backswing is one big thing that's out of the way in producing a good impact position...but good backswings are few and far between and just because you have one doesn't mean you'll get to a good impact position...

I was just trying to show that the downswing is critical to impact and the backswing is more of a positional thing....I know many think the oppsite....There are may ways to get to a good impact position but the downswing is key IMHO...

I know Jack has said the first 18 inches is key and I'm certainly not saying Jack is wrong but Today I believe the first thing that happens after the transition is the key to what happens at impact...nothing more important than dropping into the slot to produce the correct impact position...

I know it may sound stupid but I believe the swing could be better taught by reducing the backswing by 95% and start the swing similar to a baseball swing..many problems would be eleminated and the emphasis would be on downswing to impact...there's no worry that will ever happen because it is not traditional...just like Moe Norman there's no doubt his swing is a better swing for accuracy and from the learning aspect..of coarse that's IMHO.

[Mr. Desmond]

Recovery is when one is able to return to a proper impact position that produces the shot one wishes...even in light that the backswing has had compensations that need to take place to accomplish it...

You work on things that could increase swing speed without losing you correct impact position..

Trying to change someones compensations without effecting a correct impact position could be very difficult..

without a guaranteed success..

I get the feeling from your posts that you are trying to get me to say something that is wrong so you can have

something to argue about...

I'll say it again I believe impact is by far the most important position in the swing and however you get to it

is up to you to learn what works for you to achieve it...

Let's not get paranoid. I don't want to argue about anything.

Just saying that a lousy backswing has an effect on your results -- it usually will prohibit a golfer from realizing their potential.

And if a golfer does not want to get rid of the compensation  and realize their potential, that's fine. Enjoy the game.