tuffluck's Tough Love Ball Striking Thread

[iacas]

More tough love. Please take it as such

Originally Posted by tuffluck

and i would love to hear what the definition of a good ball striker is from an instructor.  and i'll say 100 times that my ball striking is not my problem, even with the occasional duffed chip or errant tee shot.

A good ball striker:

• Strikes the ball near the sweet spot darn near every time, with all clubs.
• Controls low point.
• Controls the start line and the curve reasonably well.

You are not a good ball striker unless your swing speed is 60 MPH and you simply can't hit the ball far enough to hit 9 GIR.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

FYI i shot a 92 the other day including two quintuple bogeys.  strike those 10 strokes from two holes and you've got an 82.

And if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle. You shot a 92.

I'm also not sure how you're a 17 if you've broken 90 once.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i'm just trying to give you an example of how a good ball striker can constantly have a round in the 90s.  i don't believe that you can say i am a bad ball striker by shooting 10 over on 16 holes.  as for the quintuple bogeys...

Sure I can. I don't know many (any?) good ballstrikers who shoot 10 over counting their scores for all 18 holes.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

so again i will tell you guys i am not a bad ball striker, and i think it's asinine you assume so without knowing anything about my game except that i shoot in the 90s.

Why is it asinine? You hit 3-4 greens in regulation per round. No good ball striker does that.

Heck, if I'm drawing a line at where "good ball strikers" exist, the handicap range is about a 4 or a 5.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

the only way an instructor would have helped me on that round was if he played with me and acted more like a caddy instead and told me to settle down after the first quintuple.

How'd you lose 10 other shots in 16 holes? An instructor could have easily helped you with all of those lost shots too. What course do you play? Let's see a video of your swing? Just hit six five-irons in a row.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

that is exactly how i swing.  not sure if you read my story, but 10 over through 16 holes is not very indicative of a bad ball striker, no?

Why do you think +10 on 16 holes is indicative of a competent ball striker?

Originally Posted by tuffluck

75% can't be right actually. Assuming 50 club (non putter) strokes in a round, that would mean over 10 poorly struck balls, when really i am less than 10 for sure. In fact that would be an interesting stat to keep up with.

Still tough love, but honestly, I doubt it.

I don't know if you know what truly solid contact feels like. That's not an insult - there are a lot of golfers who simply have never properly deformed a golf ball with speed, taken the proper sized divot, the works...

[tuffluck]

Hell, I posted that thinking I was editing my previous post. Sorry, did not mean to come across arrogant. Seeing many of you said you only strike well 50% of the time, I am confused. I play i20s which let me know a mishit. I don't feel them often. But i do need to judge club and distance better. A good ball strike to me means in a room with no environmental factors you can get close to your target. Hitting a ball square and dealing with elements really seem like two separate things to me.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I play i20s which let me know a mishit.

Ummm, no they don't.  I just got mine in August, and played "players cavity backs" prior.  These i20s are amaaaaaazing in regards to the help they provide on mishits.  I will hit some that feel fairly flush, and even travel pretty darn close to the correct distance and direction, and I ain't kiddin' you, they'll have been struck damn near off the grooves on the toe.  I've never seen anything like it.  (Then again, I haven't played many other clubs, but nothing comes even remotely close to the forgiveness that these provide ... as far as non-shovels go, at least.)  The clubs are fantastic, and part of that is the fact that they do not let you know when you mishit unless it was really a mishit.

Further ... a mishit doesn't just mean topped, chunked, bladed, or whiffed.  If I make good, solid contact, yet push, pull, draw or fade the ball when I wasn't intending, or doing it a little too much, that does not count as "good ball-striking."

[tuffluck]

I'm also not sure how you're a 17 if you've broken 90 once.

I dunno dude, you seem to know everything. The course rating is 73.5 and slope 133. You tell me what my differential is with a score of 92. You can even subtract the three strokes over 7 that i had, if you want.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I dunno dude, you seem to know everything. The course rating is 73.5 and slope 133. You tell me what my differential is with a score of 92. You can even subtract the three strokes over 7 that i had, if you want.

I'm sure you know this, but just in case others don't:   On the course you mention you would need 1/2 of all your scores (10 out of the last 20) average 91 in order to have a 17 cap. That would be super tough to do if you have only broken 90 once.

[tuffluck]

I'm sure you know this, but just in case others don't:   On the course you mention you would need 1/2 of all your scores (10 out of the last 20) average 91 in order to have a 17 cap. That would be super tough to do if you have only broken 90 once.

Explain please, because a 92 score is a differential on the course I mention is 13 after considering the three strokes over 7. How do we get to 17 and yet need a lower score to do so?

[Golfingdad]

The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one, right? So anybody who can't get past the first step is never going to move to the following steps. I wish you luck on your solo quest tuffluck!

[tuffluck]

I'm sure you know this, but just in case others don't:   On the course you mention you would need 1/2 of all your scores (10 out of the last 20) average 91 in order to have a 17 cap. That would be super tough to do if you have only broken 90 once.

I don't agree with this. Phelps official handicap is 18, and he told Haney his best score ever is 91. Somewhere someone is screwing up handicap calculations. If it's me, nothing I read on a simple Google search is right. Damn this thread is causing me more stress than a round of golf.

[tuffluck]

The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one, right? So anybody who can't get past the first step is never going to move to the following steps. I wish you luck on your solo quest tuffluck!

What are you even talking about? We are discussing handicap calculations FYI.

[Golfingdad]

What are you even talking about? We are discussing handicap calculations FYI.

I'm saying that you obviously aren't going to be convinced that lessons would help you because you don't recognize what your deficiencies are ... So, I'm simply saying good luck. You (anybody) can still improve without lessons, and I hope you can do it.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

75% can't be right actually. Assuming 50 club (non putter) strokes in a round, that would mean over 10 poorly struck balls, when really i am less than 10 for sure. In fact that would be an interesting stat to keep up with.

Your definition of a good ball strike must be anything that isn't chunked, bladed or shanked. That's setting the bar extremely low.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I dunno dude, you seem to know everything. The course rating is 73.5 and slope 133. You tell me what my differential is with a score of 92. You can even subtract the three strokes over 7 that i had, if you want.

Hard course.  What's the course?

Don't forget, your esc on that course is 8 strokes, not 7.  Even if your hcp index is 17, your course handicap, which determines esc, is 20.  That leaves you at a maximum esc score of 8.

FWIW, you're going to continue to find it frustrating playing tees that far outside your current skill level.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I don't agree with this. Phelps official handicap is 18, and he told Haney his best score ever is 91. Somewhere someone is screwing up handicap calculations. If it's me, nothing I read on a simple Google search is right.

Damn this thread is causing me more stress than a round of golf.

Do you actually have an established GHIN handicap, or are you estimating and/or crunching the numbers yourself?

To keep this on topic and also for the OP's benefit, as we've been saying, in order to improve, we need to know where the opportunities lie and where our baseline is.  Step one is to identify that baseline.  Part of that is an accurate, official handicap which has to be maintained fanatically.

Sorry all, I should have multi-quoted and combined the last 2 posts into one.....

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

Explain please, because a 92 score is a differential on the course I mention is 13 after considering the three strokes over 7. How do we get to 17 and yet need a lower score to do so?

He already did. Your 10 best of your last 20 would have to average 94 for you to be a 17 on that course.

And that's all beside the point: a 17 is not a good ballstriker.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I don't agree with this. Phelps official handicap is 18, and he told Haney his best score ever is 91. Somewhere someone is screwing up handicap calculations. If it's me, nothing I read on a simple Google search is right.

I don't think Phelps said he had an official handicap index.

Either way, you're a 17 at best (and quite likely not a 17) and no 17 I've ever seen is a "good ballstriker." And that certainly applies to 18s, 19s, and 20s too.

Originally Posted by David in FL

Don't forget, your esc on that course is 8 strokes, not 7.  Even if your hcp index is 17, your course handicap, which determines esc, is 20.  That leaves you at a maximum esc score of 8.

Yup.

[stoverny]

In all honesty I think tuffluck sort of derailed this thread (no offense intended to him).

The OP stated he had been playing for over 10 years and was still stuck in the mid-90s.  Obviously he is doing something wrong.

Now he could go take lessons, and that may help him.  Or it may not.  I've seen it both ways.  Depends on both teacher and student.  If the teacher is old-school and tries to instill a traditional weight-back/weight-forward swing, they may not help the OP... IF the weight shift is what gives him all the problems in the first place.  Which for many struggling golfers is exactly the problem.

He could however try a swing that minimizes that aspect of the swing.  I have done so with a lot of success and no loss in distance.  That is not to say that a mechanically perfect "traditional" swing might not produce better results if executed perfectly.  (Not saying that is necessarily true either, only that it is possible.)  However... I play golf to have fun, it's not my job.  If I can hit the ball solidly and straight, I am having a good time.

I would recommend the OP investigate some of these alternatives.  There are some like S&T; that keep weight forward.  There are others that pre-set the weight back and eliminate the shifting backwards on the backswing.  Either one may help.

As for tuffluck I am sure you can play around 90 and hit the ball solid most (not all) of the time.  However the OP is not breaking 90 and my guess is he is not hitting the ball solidly all that often either.

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Hard course.  What's the course?

Don't forget, your esc on that course is 8 strokes, not 7.  Even if your hcp index is 17, your course handicap, which determines esc, is 20.  That leaves you at a maximum esc score of 8.

FWIW, you're going to continue to find it frustrating playing tees that far outside your current skill level.

how is the course handicap 20 exactly?  i'd like to see the math here, because i thought you take (92-73.5) x 113 / 133.  that equals 15.7, not 20.  where is 20 coming from?

and tees shouldn't matter though, should they?  you move up and your score is better (maybe) but the rating/slope is better also, which should net about the same handicap.  i'd rather play from the tees that suit my distance, since handicap is going to be the same no matter which tee i play from as long as my skill level doesn't change.  psychologically an 87 playing from 6,100 yards is not more comforting than a 92 at 6,500 yards for me.

every course here is hard.  i just looked and the lowest rating/slope of all one dozen or so courses that i play is 71.7/128, distances ranging 6,400-7,000.  i think part of our high rating is due to consistently gusty wind conditions, but that's just a guess.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Your definition of a good ball strike must be anything that isn't chunked, bladed or shanked. That's setting the bar extremely low.

i guess it depends on your definition.  from about.com:

[quote]A little more in-depth, ball striking refers to a golfer's ability to put the clubface on the ball at impact in the desired manner, time after time, and with great command.[/quote]

but then later stated:

[quote]Ball striking is also a statistical category tracked by professional golf tours that is a measure of a golfer's combined abilities in driving and hitting greens.[/quote]

i'm not on a professional tour so i've always gone by the first definition.  seems to me hitting GIR and fairways can take so many other factors into consideration other than clubface impact--knowing elevation, green size, wind effects, etc.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

how is the course handicap 20 exactly?  i'd like to see the math here, because i thought you take (92-73.5) x 113 / 133.  that equals 15.7, not 20.  where is 20 coming from?

You're confusing course handicap with the differential from a single round.  The course handicap is calculated by multiplying your handicap index (96% of your 10 lowest of your last 20 differentials) by the slope rating of the course in question, then dividing by 113.

In this particular case, if your handicap index were 17, the slope rating is 133, the result is:  (17.0 x 133) / 113 = 20.0

The individual course handicaps determine how many strokes are given or received in a net completion between players.  It's also the determining factor in identifying the maximum score that may be posted for handicap reporting purposes under equitable stroke control.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

how is the course handicap 20 exactly?  i'd like to see the math here, because i thought you take (92-73.5) x 113 / 133.  that equals 15.7, not 20.  where is 20 coming from?

You are confusing how you calculate a differential vs. how you figure out a course handicap.  Everybody has an index with a tenth place decimal, however, nobody gets 0.6 strokes on a particular hole for one round.  So for each round you play, (assuming you are competing against somebody) you have to figure your handicap for that day for that course.  That is based solely on your established index and the slope.  A course with a 133 slope gives you a 20 for that day.  ESC is based on course handicap, and a 20 means you can't take anything higher than an 8.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by tuffluck

and tees shouldn't matter though, should they?  you move up and your score is better (maybe) but the rating/slope is better also, which should net about the same handicap.  i'd rather play from the tees that suit my distance, since handicap is going to be the same no matter which tee i play from as long as my skill level doesn't change.  psychologically an 87 playing from 6,100 yards is not more comforting than a 92 at 6,500 yards for me.

Theoretically, yes.  But he's suggesting that you'd get more enjoyment out of a lower score from shorter tees.  Some people aren't like that, and it sounds like you are one of them.  No big deal.  If the challenge and higher scores from longer tees works for you, then go for it.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i guess it depends on your definition.  from about.com:

[quote]A little more in-depth, ball striking refers to a golfer's ability to put the clubface on the ball at impact in the desired manner, time after time, and with great command.[/quote]

but then later stated:

[quote]Ball striking is also a statistical category tracked by professional golf tours that is a measure of a golfer's combined abilities in driving and hitting greens.[/quote]

i'm not on a professional tour so i've always gone by the first definition.  seems to me hitting GIR and fairways can take so many other factors into consideration other than clubface impact--knowing elevation, green size, wind effects, etc.

Come on, man! If you are being honest with yourself (and not just being stubborn and annoyed with us - which I'm sure we make easy, but honestly, we're only trying to help), there is no way on God's green earth that you can possibly believe this.  "Time after time and with great command" ... and you shoot 92's??  I believe that you would be very hard pressed to find a single person on this thread all the way down to about a 4 or 5 handicap who would say that about themselves.  Possibly even lower handicaps.

I don't know what else to say, other than to echo David again ... if you don't recognize where your weaknesses lie, you will never be able to improve upon them.

Whoops:  David beat me to the course handicap part. :)