Question for teachers: Why are Dan McLaughlin's (www.thedanplan.com) numbers so low

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I play a lot of golf and I don't see many men carrying it 250 and I live in CO, the ball flies here. I see a lot of guys that think they carry it 250 that are terrible at math. They make the claim when their ball is 40 yds south of the 150 marker on a 400 yd par 4.

250 carry with the modern swing is a lot for an amateur.

I dont meet many that actually is able to do it.

most overestimate their distance by 30+ yards.

won a long driving on fairway last year in wet conditions, not much roll of any and a lot of them half my age.

250 for most is a dream.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

He's hitting down (average is -1.3) and making poor contact (path is -2.0, face is 1.4 [push-fade], yet the spin axis is -2.6), so he's hitting the ball quite a bit towards the toe.

That's just a quickie glance at it. He does swing only 100 MPH.

Should spend one of those thousands of hours reading this thread

http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern/72

[Unkynd]

With a 100 mph swing, if he was catching the ball in the sweet spot with the correct angle of attack to have the perfect trajectory, how far would his max carry be at sea level? I woukd think it would be more than 250, which leads me to believe that swing speed isn't his problem, rather it's contact and technique.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by garybbq

You really think so? I mean 4000 hours is a seriously long time to spend on golf. I have seen quite a few high handicap golfers in reasonable shape carry past 250 and they certianly didnt spend 4000 hours with a coach.

I believe if you took a person who's never golfed and gave them a driver and 4000 hours of practice - most will never get close to 300 yards, but I guarantee you all of them would be pretty accurate by the end of that 4000 hours - regardless of how far they hit it

I've golfed for 3 years now - my distance has increased, but my accuracy has increased a lot more.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by garybbq

You really think so? I mean 4000 hours is a seriously long time to spend on golf. I have seen quite a few high handicap golfers in reasonable shape carry past 250 and they certianly didnt spend 4000 hours with a coach.

Yes I do.  And you're last sentence goes towards my reasoning.  There are plenty of people who can carry it that far without a coach, just like they are tons who will never be able to with a coach.  Distance involves a lot more physical attributes than the rest of the game.  I do think anybody who wants to could become an excellent putter with the right coaching and practice, but distance involves too much in the way of speed, strength and timing for anybody to be able to do it.  I think. ;)

Before I started on this forum, if somebody asked me what my average drive distance was, I would have told them 290-300.  Then I started noticing all of the arguments on the various "How far ya hit?" threads and it got me wondering.  So I started paying closer attention, and sure enough, I wasn't even close.  (My average drive is a heck of a lot closer to 260 than it is to 290. ;))  It dawned on me why, as well.  I never bothered to check a distance on a drive unless I crushed it.  So my sample size was completely skewed.  My "average" drive only consisted of one or two per round in the 280-310 range, "therefore" that was my average.  I conveniently forgot about all the other.  And, remember, those aren't just carry distances, those are total.

Now I practice and play a lot more and have a better idea of my game.  It also helps that there is a target pole at the range I use right at 250 yards ... even my best drives in practice (and this range is usually downwind) land within a few yards of that pole.  The good ones may roll out to 290, but most are much shorter.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Unkynd

With a 100 mph swing, if he was catching the ball in the sweet spot with the correct angle of attack to have the perfect trajectory, how far would his max carry be at sea level?

I woukd think it would be more than 250, which leads me to believe that swing speed isn't his problem, rather it's contact and technique.

Something like that, 235 to 240 carry.  Here are the numbers for the LPGA

And people can fool around with numbers here

http://www.flightscope.com/index.php/Technology-Explained/trajectory-optimizer.html

[garybbq]

Yes I do.  And you're last sentence goes towards my reasoning.  There are plenty of people who can carry it that far [U] without [/U] a coach, just like they are tons who will never be able to [U] with [/U] a coach.  Distance involves a lot more physical attributes than the rest of the game.  I do think anybody who wants to could become an excellent putter with the right coaching and practice, but distance involves too much in the way of speed, strength and timing for anybody to be able to do it.  I think. ;) [SPOILER=OT Personal Distance Stuff] Before I started on this forum, if somebody asked me what my average drive distance was, I would have told them 290-300.  Then I started noticing all of the arguments on the various "How far ya hit?" threads and it got me wondering.  So I started paying closer attention, and sure enough, I wasn't even close.  (My average drive is a heck of a lot closer to 260 than it is to 290. ;))  It dawned on me why, as well.  I never bothered to check a distance on a drive unless I crushed it.  So my sample size was completely skewed.  My "average" drive only consisted of one or two per round in the 280-310 range, "therefore" that was my average.  I conveniently forgot about all the other.  And, remember, those aren't just carry distances, those are total. Now I practice and play a lot more and have a better idea of my game.  It also helps that there is a target pole at the range I use right at 250 yards ... even my best drives in practice (and this range is usually downwind) land within a few yards of that pole.  The good ones may roll out to 290, but most are much shorter. [/SPOILER]

Interesting point, so you are saying that Dan lacks the physical ability to carry 250? And that even with practice and coaching that will be as far as he can hit it?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by garybbq

Interesting point, so you are saying that Dan lacks the physical ability to carry 250? And that even with practice and coaching that will be as far as he can hit it?

I wasn't really saying that so much as I was saying that it takes enough of things other than practice (speed, strength, timing) that not nearly as many as you think could do it.  Certainly not "most."

But your thread was started on that very premise, so I guess, yeah, I would say that.  I mean he HAS already had 4k hours of coaching and practice and can't hit it that far, so the proof is right there.  Unless you mean 4000 MORE hours of coaching and practice is all thats needed? ;)

[garybbq]

Haha no that's what I was getting at. 4000 hours should be enough to figure it out

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by garybbq

Haha no that's what I was getting at. 4000 hours should be enough to figure it out

depends, many amateurs played for 30 years or more and still havent figured it out.

I meet amateurs that you can outhit with a 4i when they hit driver. I met amateurs same age as me that hit spoon as far I hit a 7i.

He runs out of space in his swing one reason for errant shots.

[joekelly]

So what if he is small. As long as the club head is going fast enough and square enough, the ball will fly 250 yards. Makes no difference who is holding the handle.

[mvmac]

A lot of golfers that you see on tour developed their speed young, like early teens.  Tough to develop raw speed later.  Can definitely increase speed/distance through better technique and better contact.

[mailman]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

I am not a golf pro, but I would say this has a lot to do with the fact that natural ability is a major determining factor in how good someone can be at golf. Dan McGlaughlin is putting in as much or more time practicing golf as many tour pros, and he has had loads and loads of instruction, but his natural "god given" abilities can only take him so far. Not everyone can be a tour pro, heck not everyone can be a scratch golfer.

I think you hit it on the head...natural ability!

I was watching Golfing World last night and they were interviewing a retired soccer player (played pretty high...no idea of it was Premiere League or not because soccer holds about as much interest for me as golf does for my kids:) but anyways....the guy had to retire last year because of a knee injury and instead focussed on becoming a professional golfer, which he did achieve by getting in to the European tour (the lowest professional tour available). The thing is he has had no tuition BUT I think the real difference here is that he is one of those guys who will be good at what ever they do.

While I applaud what Dan is doing and would love to do something like that myself, having watched his videos he just doesnt look like he has that natural ability required to get to the highest level. He may end up being a very good golfer but just might not be able to take it all the way.

I hope he does go pro though.

Regards

Mailman

[joekelly]

I know that if a person does not learn a foreign language before age 14, approx, then he/she will never speak as a native.  this due to vocal cord conditioning, a physical process with a set limit,  and the ability to mimic sounds. Now, this is not the same as verbal communication but if you listen to, eg, Henry Kissinger, a smart person, good verbal communicator but in no way identified as a 'native english spearker' because he did not learn english until age 17. There are rare exceptions but this holds true mostly. Maybe the same for golf swing speed. Unless learned young, not learned correctly.  Muscle, tendon, joint flexibility, and mostly , i think, the acceptance to trust the club head/ball relationship to do the right thing and to not attempt to control the ball.  If your mind says 'Control the ball' then you are set up for  golf failure.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by joekelly

I know that if a person does not learn a foreign language before age 14, approx, then he/she will never speak as a native.  this due to vocal cord conditioning, a physical process with a set limit,  and the ability to mimic sounds. Now, this is not the same as verbal communication but if you listen to, eg, Henry Kissinger, a smart person, good verbal communicator but in no way identified as a 'native english spearker' because he did not learn english until age 17. There are rare exceptions but this holds true mostly. Maybe the same for golf swing speed. Unless learned young, not learned correctly.

Gotta agree. There are always exceptions to the rule though, as you mentioned, and even then, they correlate with the idea that hard work isn't enough to reach the highest of the highs. Larry Nelson has 10 PGA Tour wins and 3 major championships, but didn't start playing golf until he was 21 years old.

Nelson broke 100 the first time he ever played 18 holes and then broke 70 after nine months. Quite the far cry from Mr. Dan Plan. Yea, Larry Nelson had what some in the industry like to call "talent," whether we want to accept that as a reality or not.

By my estimation, there are only 6574 total hours in a period of nine months, and I'm pretty sure in that time ol' Larry had to sleep, eat, and do whatever he did to earn money to play golf too.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by joekelly

I know that if a person does not learn a foreign language before age 14, approx, then he/she will never speak as a native.  this due to vocal cord conditioning, a physical process with a set limit,  and the ability to mimic sounds.

Not true.

Another myth out there.

Just beacuse you guys cant do it dont mean you suddenly need talent to do things as you cant do it.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

Not true.

Another myth out there.

Just because you guys cant do it dont mean you suddenly need talent to do things as you cant do it.

You've been aiming to be a tour pro "soon" for the 3 years you've been on this forum.  Your stated goals 3 years ago was to be down to scratch within 4 months and to qualify for the tour.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/31415/your-2010-golf-goals-official-thread/180#post_433173

Why aren't you there?  Heck, as an 8 hcp, why are you still struggling to break 80?

We all have goals, hopes, dreams and aspirations.  Some realistic, some not.  I'd like to imagine myself a tour player, but I simply don't have the natural talent or the physical body to do it.  That's not defeatist, it's pragmatic.

[MS256]

My opinions with nothing to back them up:

A lot of the potential for power we have is the fast twitch abilitly we are born with. Since most of us never use all of our natural potential for speed and power due to improper mechanics often players with less natural ability but better training techniques can eliminate that power leakage and end up more powerful.

Players in any sport I've been around that are allowed (or forced) to use maximum power at an early age almost always carry it with them as they get older. That kid that is playing on the men's slow pitch softball team when he's in the fourth grade, or that kid that's on the high school golf team when he's in elementary school, or that kid that gets moved up from Little League to Pony League and is forced into using maximum power to be able to compete will usually always be a power player for life, and the kids that didn't will have to try to catch them in the power department through training and mechanical improvement.

Most golfers that have power that didn't take up golf as a kid carried the power they learned from baseball, hockey, or swinging a sledge hammer or a ax on their dad's farm with them into golf. Then the only thing they have to do is pull off the changes in mechanics, mostly getting over the back palm up/front palm down at impact that baseball and swinging a hammer or an ax require. (Easy to say, much harder to do).

Let's say I'm a college baseball coach and you let me watch two kids at 12 years old pitch and one of them is as wild as a March rabbit but throws everything as hard as he can and the other has good control but never turns loose the fastball, and then I never get to see those kids again. When they get to college age I have to pick the one I want on my team without seeing them. I'll take the wild kid that pushed for power. More than likely he will have learned control and more than likely the other kid will have not have the power to get a fastball past a college hitter. He may be a Greg Maddux or a John Tudor, and may be the best pitcher of the two, but without knowing for sure I'll take my chances with the power kid.