What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by saltman

I presume only if they somehow cheated their way to a worse handicap.  Sandbagging is different discussion.

No, having a higher handicap can adversely effect a tournament as well.  For example, I play in a local Pro-AM every now and then that requires a Pro/A/B/C flight as the foursome.

My group isn't going to have as good of a chance to win if the B flight player actually plays like a C.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

No, having a higher handicap can adversely effect a tournament as well.  For example, I play in a local Pro-AM every now and then that requires a Pro/A/B/C flight as the foursome.

My group isn't going to have as good of a chance to win if the B flight player actually plays like a C.

I know what you mean and I agree with it but I couldn't help but smile. Sounds like you were in a game with me.

I am usually a B player (unless there aren't enough A players and I get nominated).

Quite often I play like a C, sometimes like a D, and occasionally as good as an A. No vanity or sandbagging. That's just how I play.

Funny thing is that usually when I'm forced into service as an A I usually play like one...Hmmm. Maybe that should tell me something.

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by MS256

I know what you mean and I agree with it but I couldn't help but smile. Sounds like you were in a game with me.

I am usually a B player (unless there aren't enough A players and I get nominated).

Quite often I play like a C, sometimes like a D, and occasionally as good as an A. No vanity or sandbagging. That's just how I play.

Funny thing is that usually when I'm forced into service as an A I usually play like one...Hmmm. Maybe that should tell me something.

HeHe.  I know it happens quite often due to legitimate inconsistency.  Some days I go to the course and play like I'd be a single digit.. and then others times I think people would refer to me as a hack :).

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

HeHe.  I know it happens quite often due to legitimate inconsistency.  Some days I go to the course and play like I'd be a single digit.. and then others times I think people would refer to me as a hack :).

This happens to me within the same round!

[MS256]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

This happens to me within the same round!

Strangely whatever I have that day is usually pretty consistent all day. If anything I get better by the last part of the round (once I figure out what is working) but not a big difference.

I usually know by about the second hole if it's going to be a struggle or a piece of cake.

When I address the ball early in the round and it feels like I have a foreign instrument in my hands, and look down at the club and wonder how I'm going to hit the ball with it, I know I'm in trouble.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MS256

Quote:

Originally Posted by SloverUT

No, having a higher handicap can adversely effect a tournament as well.  For example, I play in a local Pro-AM every now and then that requires a Pro/A/B/C flight as the foursome.

My group isn't going to have as good of a chance to win if the B flight player actually plays like a C.

I know what you mean and I agree with it but I couldn't help but smile. Sounds like you were in a game with me.

I am usually a B player (unless there aren't enough A players and I get nominated).

Quite often I play like a C, sometimes like a D, and occasionally as good as an A. No vanity or sandbagging. That's just how I play.

Funny thing is that usually when I'm forced into service as an A I usually play like one...Hmmm. Maybe that should tell me something.

Boy, am I right there with you.   I've played from A to D in the last 20 years, and sometimes even when that was my actual place on the team (never a D, but I've been seeded as A, B, and C).

Originally Posted by saltman

I have no problem with a 23 handicapper playing by the rules UNLESS he takes 5.5 hours per round and I can't finish my round as a result.  Then you are darn right I have something to say about it because he/she just cost me money.

It's called recreational golf vs. tournament golf.

I've played by the rules in competition with plenty of 10 handicaps who are slower than the typical 23.  Rules don't make slow.  Slow makes slow.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I see how that is now. The way I do it isn't usually very beneficial anyway as I drop in the nasty stuff right by ob usually well back from where it went over or drop it in the long grass it was lost in, but I can see where the discrepancy is now at least. I'll start making sure I assess the 2 stroke instead of 1 if I have to do this in the future. This still doesn't really explain why you have to lose stroke and distance when hitting OB as opposed to hitting in the water, to me they should be dealt with the same. That's not to say that I'll ignore the rule and play it how I like, just that it doesn't seem "fair" especially with those shots that bounce and roll OB where it is very easy to determine the point of entry.

Excellent.  Of course the best thing is to hit a provisional when it is possible that the ball is OB or lost.  It should be almost always possible for the former and usually possible for the latter.  Although there are occasions where a ball is hit somewhere where it should be findable, but unexpectedly isn't.

You are to be commended for accepting the rule as it is and not trying to rationalize violating it, as so many others have here.

Originally Posted by saltman

I have no problem with a 23 handicapper playing by the rules UNLESS he takes 5.5 hours per round and I can't finish my round as a result.  Then you are darn right I have something to say about it because he/she just cost me money.

It's called recreational golf vs. tournament golf.

Can you tell me where I can get a recreational golf rulebook?

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by saltman

So you carry a legit 6.8 index and your ego is so fragile that you care about the legitimacy of a 25 handicapper?  I simply don't get it.  I think its arrogant and just childish to say they are playing a variant of golf.  By the time someone works their game down to even a mid-teen index they will have also grown to understand the rules much better.  I have taught a lot of people the game over the years.  I take pride in doing so without being judgmental and also keeping the pace of play to a reasonable standard.

Edit:  I didn't mean for this to sound unduly harsh.  I just think this talk of variants of golf is just silly season.  I also think those people that go out and practice on the course 4 out of 5 times they are playing and only record 1 score are likely more guilty of handicap manipulation than those that don't fully understand the rules of the game.  As a general rule I really don't like practicing on the course.  When I am on the course I don't want to take more divots or create more ball marks than necessary.

Handicap and playing by the rules is what normalizes golf for different skill levels so that in tournaments and wagers on the course you can level the playing field or discuss overall experiences about a course.  If you aren't following the rules and submit your score for handicap calculations it's makes your handicap meaningless for the above purposes.

The NBA doesn't keep stats on players that use a 8' net, major league baseball doesn't track HR's hit with aluminum bats on little league fields.  If I ask a person what their handicap is and they tell me it's a 15, then it should be a real 15, not a 15 but with a caveat that they take 2 breakfast balls, a mulligan on each 9, use foot wedges, fluff their lie and anything within 10' of the cup is in.

I don't think anyone here cares who follows the rules and who doesn't, it's that they don't follow the rules and submit their scores for handicap.  Fundamentally, it's dishonest, even if the end result is they cheat themselves.

[saltman]

When you compare recreational amateur golf to other professional sports is loses all credibility. What you and I do on Saturday on a golf course is recreational golf, save for tournament play. Calling people learning the game cheaters is bush league. I am not talking about blatent single digit handicap players cheating. I am talking about weekend warriors that have never played a round of competitive tournament golf in their life. Again, playing someone who has an artificially low handicap because they are largely ignorant of the rules only helps you. I can't remember the last time I lost money on the golf course. When it comes to playing for money, I politely help my opponents understand the rules as situations arise. As one would expect it generally turns their 90 into 100. I don't run around calling them cheats, but rather beginners.

[SloverUT]

If you want to call it recreational golf, fine.  However, I don't understand this willingness to forgive ignorance of rules in the game of golf.  It is one of the only sports/games I play where people are so willing to overlook this issue.  If I am playing church league softball, there are rules I need to know and ignorance isn't an excuse.   Why is it the opposite in Golf?  It is like people condone people being to lazy to lead a rule book.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by saltman

When you compare recreational amateur golf to other professional sports is loses all credibility. What you and I do on Saturday on a golf course is recreational golf, save for tournament play. Calling people learning the game cheaters is bush league. I am not talking about blatent single digit handicap players cheating. I am talking about weekend warriors that have never played a round of competitive tournament golf in their life. Again, playing someone who has an artificially low handicap because they are largely ignorant of the rules only helps you. I can't remember the last time I lost money on the golf course. When it comes to playing for money, I politely help my opponents understand the rules as situations arise. As one would expect it generally turns their 90 into 100. I don't run around calling them cheats, but rather beginners.

You sure play different tracks that I do then.  For one thing, even most beginners know that they have to add a penalty stroke when taking relief from a water hazard.  So that doesn't change anything in their scores, only in the correctness of the drop if they want my counsel.

Out of bounds?  They have probably never taken the stroke and distance penalty, but then half of the  members on this forum, regardless of handicap do not play that correctly either.  I'll teach them about the provisional ball if that scenario comes up, but it's up to them to take it to heart or not.  However, most courses I play don't have out of bounds on every hole, so it's not a big factor in scoring or in time lost.  I hate such courses (I see them as poorly designed, aimed purely at maximizing some developer's bottom line and to Hell with the golfers who are stuck playing there), so I don't play them if I have any option.

In any event, your assertion on their scoring is highly inflated from most of my experience.  But then, I mostly play with golfers, including relative beginners, who are actually interested in playing the game as it's intended, not as you seem to prefer that they play.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

If you want to call it recreational golf, fine.  However, I don't understand this willingness to forgive ignorance of rules in the game of golf.  It is one of the only sports/games I play where people are so willing to overlook this issue.  If I am playing church league softball, there are rules I need to know and ignorance isn't an excuse.   Why is it the opposite in Golf?  It is like people condone people being to lazy to lead a rule book.

The only time people really need to care about the rules of golf is when they want to work on their handicap and/or play tournaments. Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether they hit mulligans or fluff their lie, etc. Now, if they want to brag about the score they shot, I may ask if they hit a mulligan or whatever. I won't belittle them, but they'll probably get the point that their score isn't legit.

[saltman]

There is not other sport in the world with a more complicated set of rules than golf. Again, I don't mean to be condescending, but I am willing to bet you inadvertantly break a rule more frequently than you realize on a golf course. I played high level junior and amateur tournament golf growing up and I still occasionally run into a situation on a golf course in which I either do not recall the rule or never knew it. I've never even seen a rule book for a church league softball game. When can we stop with the over dramatic comparisons?? The last time I printed off the full copy of the USGA rule book it was something like 200 pages.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You sure play different tracks that I do then.  For one thing, even most beginners know that they have to add a penalty stroke when taking relief from a water hazard.  So that doesn't change anything in their scores, only in the correctness of the drop if they want my counsel.

Out of bounds?  They have probably never taken the stroke and distance penalty, but then half of the  members on this forum, regardless of handicap do not play that correctly either.  I'll teach them about the provisional ball if that scenario comes up, but it's up to them to take it to heart or not.  However, most courses I play don't have out of bounds on every hole, so it's not a big factor in scoring or in time lost.  I hate such courses (I see them as poorly designed, aimed purely at maximizing some developer's bottom line and to Hell with the golfers who are stuck playing there), so I don't play them if I have any option.

In any event, your assertion on their scoring is highly inflated from most of my experience.  But then, I mostly play with golfers, including relative beginners, who are actually interested in playing the game as it's intended, not as you seem to prefer that they play.

It's very annoying to have OB markers everywhere, it's probably why I play better on the bigger courses I do better. Bigger courses seem to have a lot less in the way of OB. I can play out from trees, bushes, and whatnot in fewer strokes than re-teeing or taking a drop + penalty.

[saltman]

I'm happy to come play you for money FourPutt :). I live in a major city and many courses are locked in with no place to expand. I played a course last Friday that had OB left on about 11 holes. I can imagine the days when I had less confidence in my swing adding up to about 15 strokes. Fortunately for me, those days are behind me....at least for the time being.

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by saltman

There is not other sport in the world with a more complicated set of rules than golf. Again, I don't mean to be condescending, but I am willing to bet you inadvertantly break a rule more frequently than you realize on a golf course. I played high level junior and amateur tournament golf growing up and I still occasionally run into a situation on a golf course in which I either do not recall the rule or never knew it. I've never even seen a rule book for a church league softball game. When can we stop with the over dramatic comparisons?? The last time I printed off the full copy of the USGA rule book it was something like 200 pages.

Inadvertently breaking a rule and choosing to ignore/break rules is entirely different.  Jesus.

And comparing church league softball isn't an over dramatic comparison.  It is the exact same thing.  Softball has an official set of rules just like golf.  The church league softball is a recreational event which is what you claim amateur golfers are playing. However, recreational softball still plays by the official rules of Softball.

However, the main point is that breaking a rule knowingly to lower your score is not the same as your example of inadvertently doing it.

[bplewis24]

There's nothing "bush league" about calling cheating, cheating.  It's either factually correct or it's not.

[saltman]

Thats great that you feel that way. You are wrong. Please show me in the rule book where the penalty is based on knowledge vs. lack of knowledge.