My Swing (JonMA1)

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Well, it started getting dark and I was only able to plot 6 of the 8 (of the other two, one was close to the target, the other hooked left of it). All 8 shots curved left.

Could I have pulled off the shot Erik showcased? Not in a million years. But this exercise indicated I can get the ball to stay low and curve left.

A better test would have been to hit around a tree (right) and draw it back to target behind that tree. This drill let you just hit a pull with a very small draw.

[JonMA1]

Agreed... it wasn't much of a curve.

I'll try your suggestion tomorrow or this weekend. I do have limitations on how much curve I can get, but that'll only change if I keep challenging myself. 

Thank you for the suggestion @iacas.

[JonMA1]

Tried @iacas advice and made this a little more challenging. This time, I was 5-10 yards behind a tree (upper right of photo) that was directly in front of my target. The goal was for the ball to reach the target and curve a little left of it (green circle).  It required much more of a draw than yesterday's drill -  and apparently more than I can efficiently execute. I used a 4i today instead of the 5i I used yesterday.

I didn't measure any of the shots with GPS tonight and instead went by memory.

A couple actually made it to the target area, but the rest varied from low hooks that didn't get very far through the tall grass, to some that had more curve than I wanted, to some that had very little curve (good starting line but closer to straight). I started a few too far right and hit that first tree.

As good as I felt about my ability to control at least a little curve yesterday, this was a dose of reality and showed me what not to try on the course. Getting the right combination of swing path and club face angle proved difficult with my limited skills.

Overall, it was a fun exercise and I thought worthwhile.

[JonMA1]

I almost posted last night after an especially poor practice session but decided against sharing my negativity. It was one of those practices when I couldn't figure out what was going on. Even slowing down to half swings wasn't working. I just couldn't get much more than a line drive trajectory. It was that feeling of fighting against my own body again.

Sometimes things are just "off". Maybe I had too much caffeine earlier in the day, or not enough sleep the night before... who knows. But this afternoon I went back out and it was quite a bit different. 

This is the best season I've had - maybe the only season - where I started and ended with an iron swing that produced a little better contact. I've tried so many things over the years that have worked through the summer, only to start completely over after finishing poorly.

Hopefully, I can practice enough this winter to not lose much ground.

[JonMA1]

I really had trouble controlling the low point of my today. I thinned so many full iron swings and even partial swing approach shots. Once I began making better contact, I'd have issues with club face control. Needless to say, hitting greens in regulation was challenging.

I need to modify my vote on the How Often Do You the Sweet Spot thread.

Today's round may be the last because of the weather. If so, it was a fitting end. I've bragged this year about how well I hit partial and full iron swings compared to my HC. The last couple of rounds have proved otherwise.

I'm not sure how to prepare for next season, but I'm no longer going to kill myself trying to develop the 5 simple keys. I do enjoy the feeling of a well-struck ball and I can get that with my current swing. The times when shot after shot is solid and I start controlling direction, there comes a feeling of real control. It's a high like no other.

It's becoming apparent that the poor swing mechanics which I possess are much, much less of a problem than my inability to consistently execute them. The periods of decent ball striking are always followed by enough poor shots to make low scoring impossible. I keep waiting for that to flip... for the frequency of poor golf to diminish. But it never does.

I understand why so many walk away from the game. It ain't for everyone. Some of us are just too stubborn to accept defeat.

[JonMA1]

@billchao I didn't want to go down this rabbit hole again in the wrong thread. I'm trying very hard to comply with the forum's policies so I thought this would be best. 

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When I brought up my game earlier in that thread with Lihu, it was to illustrate that it's very possible some of us know our games better than others and that the short game can sometimes be a weakness. I shouldn't have discussed it there and, instead, redirected it here. 

When I brought up my practice ratio more recently with Jerry, it was to let him know I agreed with him on the importance of the full swing as he seemed to think I disagreed.

As far as why I practice the way I do....

After devoting a good amount of time towards it last winter, putting had improved slightly this year with a change in mechanics. I didn't record as many GameGolf rounds this year as last year, so that slight improvement isn't obvious.

Still, I was losing some strokes and it was still a weakness as you pointed out. So in addition to the putting strip I use in the winter (which does little but help with bead and speed), I used every round I've played in 2017 to practice reading greens with my feet. Unfortunately, the season is all but over so that type of work is done.

One other thing about my game. When I cut back on practicing the iron game to work on something else, it suffers (see posts above). This has been especially challenging as I try to improve the driver - which may be costing more strokes than my putting.

2017 is the first year I've started and ended with basically the same iron swing. As imperfect as it is, I hope to develop it into one that will get me to bogey golf. I'm not going to get there in the next couple of years if at all.... that's how hard this game is for me.

I put the disproportionate time into the iron swing because it is so much harder to learn and because I have more opportunity to practice it.

[Lihu]

8 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

When I brought up my game earlier in that thread with Lihu, it was to illustrate that it's very possible some of us know our games better than others and that the short game can sometimes be a weakness. I shouldn't have discussed it there and, instead, redirected it here. 

I agreed that if short game is really your glaring weakness you should probably fix that instead of arguing with people on the internet about generalizations. I was talking about in general, but didn't get specific feedback until you started posting very specific things about your game.

Short game is easy to learn and fix, but you have to do it. Admittedly, it was a glaring weakness for me when I started playing again to the tune of 10 strokes a round. It really didn't take a lot to fix the putting to my previous best level of short game and putting. It took 2 clinics and 2 lessons to learn the movement again. For me, at least, I'd totally forgotten what I did a year ago when I was playing pretty well. I'll probably forget it next year as well when I go shooting for half a year next summer. So, in my case, instead of telling people that I have a glaring weakness, I fixed it inside a month.

My guess is it might take you less time than it did me such that it's not such a glaring weakness anymore?  @billchao even thinks you can shave off 5 strokes putting, and that's significant. . .

 

Quote

I put the disproportionate time into the iron swing because it is so much harder to learn and because I have more opportunity to practice it.

It's more fun to hit stuff from far away, and I'm not guiltless of wanting to do that as well. That's my main interest in golf. I love hitting close or in regulation. It's the most satisfying part of my game, at this point, so that's why I also focus 90% of my time on it with the remaining 10% being playing and a small fraction of that putting and chipping. That's not how to improve my game and I know it, but based upon our conversations, it seems like you want to improve your scores. This is not the way to do it.

It's tough breaking out of this mentality, but if you average 100 strokes, you could easily be shooting mid 90s based upon the assessment of other people like @billchao.

BTW, you can go ahead and say "What's holding you back, Lihu?" in my swing thread too! I just shot a 66 for 13 holes with 3 in complete darkness finding balls with the iPhone/Galaxy flashlights, so there's plenty to discuss in my swing thread as well.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Lihu

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

I was talking about in general, but didn't get specific feedback until you started posting very specific things about your game.

Yep. That was my fault for posting specifics in that thread. I should have known it would go off-topic and that's not what I wanted. That's why I responded to Bill's post here.

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

It's more fun to hit stuff from far away, and I'm not guiltless of wanting to do that as well. That's my main interest in golf. I love hitting close or in regulation. It's the most satisfying part of my game, at this point, so that's why I also focus 90% of my time on it with the remaining 10% being playing and a small fraction of that putting and chipping. That's not how to improve my game and I know it, but based upon our conversations, it seems like you want to improve your scores. This is not the way to do it.

I hate to admit it, but there might be some truth to this for me as well. There is nothing in this game more fulfilling than hitting a green with a long iron. Still, it's a good skill to improve upon so it isn't completely emotional.

Anyway, I have to put more thought into what my weaknesses are. I think I have a good handle on them but so much of my game needs work, it's not completely cut and dried. If I had to guess where I was during the last half of the season it would be (in order of best to worst and relative to a 23hc):

1. Wedges and short irons to the green - maybe a bit above average

2. Full swing irons - about average

3. pitches, chips, flops, sand - below average

4. Driver and putter - both way below average

Of the guys from TST I played with this year, @dennyjonessaw what I'd consider to be a typical round when we played Maple Creek. The tees played at or just above 6,000 yards which is as long as I should play. While the 108 I shot was 8 strokes above my average, no part of my game stood out as being particularly worse than usual... missed putts, errant drives... pretty standard stuff.

@dennyjones, you probably weren't paying much attention to my game, but if there was a single weakness that stood out, perhaps you would share? Be brutally honest. I'm guessing you'll reply with something like "yeah, EVERYTHING needs work!".

Thanks @billchao and @Lihu for the help!

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by JonMA1

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Yep. That was my fault for posting specifics in that thread. I should have known it would go off-topic and that's not what I wanted. That's why I responded to Bill's post here.

I hate to admit it, but there might be some truth to this for me as well. There is nothing in this game more fulfilling than hitting a green with a long iron. Still, it's a good skill to improve upon so it isn't completely emotional.

Anyway, I have to put more thought into what my weaknesses are. I think I have a good handle on them but so much of my game needs work, it's not completely cut and dried. If I had to guess where I was during the last half of the season it would be (in order of best to worst and relative to a 23hc):

1. Wedges and short irons to the green - maybe a bit above average

2. Full swing irons - about average

3. pitches, chips, flops, sand - below average

4. Driver and putter - both way below average

Of the guys from TST I played with this year, @dennyjonessaw what I'd consider to be a typical round when we played Maple Creek. The tees played at or just above 6,000 yards which is as long as I should play. While the 108 I shot was 8 strokes above my average, no part of my game stood out as being particularly worse than usual... missed putts, errant drives... pretty standard stuff.

@dennyjones, you probably weren't paying much attention to my game, but if there was a single weakness that stood out, perhaps you would share? Be brutally honest. I'm guessing you'll reply with something like "yeah, EVERYTHING needs work!".

Thanks @billchao and @Lihu for the help!

 

 

Thank you too! These conversations are helpful in both directions.

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Not trying to be argumentative @iacas (I really want to understand this), but an improved swing would provide both accuracy and average distance. Better contact and a decrease in hooks and slices would reduce the shorter drives. But then that would also increase my average accuracy. Correct?

IDK how Erik will answer this, but I will answer in my particular case.

I now have a mechanically better and faster swing, but do not make good contact. I basically hit farther but end up all over the place so my scores suck. I was a lot better with a shorter swing where I hit the center of the face all the time, but I feel that there is potential do much better once I can take what I do on the driving range onto the course.

 

Quote

When I read that thread, all I can think is that my longest drives are what they are... I don't see that improving. The frequency of better contact? Hopefully. Is that what is meant by gaining distance?

You never know unless you try. 56 years is not that old.

 

Quote

I just don't understand the extra distance without any improvement in accuracy gaining 2 or more strokes. I know Broadie has done the research and it has to be true. And I understand how 20 yards would save some strokes (by leaving 2 clubs less for my next shot). But stroke and distance from penalties are killing me.

I just have trouble wrapping my head around improving my scores without decreasing the penalties.

I think it's like this, but don't quote me on it.

I'd guess that 20 yards is basically 2.5 clubs down on an approach shot and possibly 3 clubs. Let's say you normally hit driver and 6i on a hole, now imagine hitting a driver and 9i or a soft 8i. Do you think you'll be able to potentially score better by 2.3 strokes over 14 holes where you could use your driver with a 9i or soft 8i versus a 6i?

 

Dude, I just noticed that we hijacked yet another thread!

[JonMA1]

41 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'd guess that 20 yards is basically 2.5 clubs down on an approach shot and possibly 3 clubs. Let's say you normally hit driver and 6i on a hole, now imagine hitting a driver and 9i or a soft 8i. Do you think you'll be able to potentially score better by 2.3 strokes over 14 holes where you could use your driver with a 9i or soft 8i versus a 6i?

Right, I understand the concept and it's why I agree that working on the long game is so important. But that doesn't mean I believe an additional 20 yards off the tee is in my future.

43 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You never know unless you try. 56 years is not that old

Lol, it isn't as though I haven't tried. I appreciate the encouragement though, Lihu.

This has less to do with my age and more to do with spending the last 6 years of my life completely immersed into trying to improve. Lessons, club fittings, hours of practice everyday, video, better practice habits.... my game is what it is and it's embarrassing that I put so much effort into it. I'm not spending the next 6 years chasing more distance.

[Lihu]

9 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

This has less to do with my age and more to do with spending the last 6 years of my life completely immersed into trying to improve. Lessons, club fittings, hours of practice everyday, video, better practice habits.... my game is what it is and it's embarrassing that I put so much effort into it. I'm not spending the next 6 years chasing more distance.

Golf has ups and downs, and you have to be able to adapt to the ups and downs. 6 years is not that much time if you are doing the same thing over and over again.

There are many players who are older than you and swinging much faster, what is the key difference between you and them? It's not all just "talent". Speed is trained up to a point, but most people aren't even close to their potential. Their mechanics sucks. What should you do to increase your speed? There is likely a way to do it.

[JonMA1]

I don't disagree with any of that @Lihu. With better mechanics there certainly would be a few additional yards to squeeze out. I'm not sure there would be 20, but there'd be something.

At the same time, the older guys who swing faster are likely better athletes to go along with the fact they have better mechanics. (My definition of "athletic ability" may be a bit different than other's.)

 

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I don't disagree with any of that @Lihu. With better mechanics there certainly would be a few additional yards to squeeze out. I'm not sure there would be 20, but there'd be something.

At the same time, the older guys who swing faster are likely better athletes to go along with the fact they have better mechanics. (My definition of "athletic ability" may be a bit different than other's.)

Why are you that certain you're at your potential for distance? I'm pretty sure a good coach will be able to find "leaks" in your swing that could add up to at least a stroke? In any case, you'll likely be looking for help in the "accuracy" department anyway, so I'd imagine he could fix both at the same time as you alluded?

Edited November 18, 2017 by Lihu

[JonMA1]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Why are you that certain you're at your potential for distance? I'm pretty sure a good coach will be able to find "leaks" in your swing that could add up to at least a stroke? In any case, you'll likely be looking for help in the "accuracy" department anyway, so I'd imagine he could fix both at the same time as you alluded?

I don't know... I just feel like I can't get rid of whatever bad habits are preventing me from experiencing any kind of improvement. I hate to say this, but if I had all the resources in the world - time, money, good instruction - improvement would be minimal. As I stated recently, my average distance may increase if the frequency of duffs, hooks and slices are reduced, but I'm never going to get 240 yards of carry with my driver. 

Anyway, my practice for the last year has been much more methodical. It gets a little dicey once the playing season starts, but even then, I'm trying to focus on specific weaknesses within each part of the game. While some parts of the game seem to be approaching unconscious competence (remember, my bar is set pretty low), other areas such as the driver, 5w and 4i require a very slow swing - 30 to 50%. I'm going to use that speed until I no longer have to think about what to do. Then I'll consider swinging harder.

That's the plan anyway.

[JonMA1]

I used a launch monitor today and recorded ten swings from 5 clubs. These were all full swings at about 80%-90% effort. Everything but the driver was without a tee. The employee suggested I discard the duffs, but I decided to keep them. They lowered my averages but I thought they were a good "snapshot" of how I hit.

No real surprises on distances or side angles (other than the pull hooks with my 5w), but the numbers on the driver may have provided something to work towards.  I have to do a better job of controlling my low point. Currently, I seem to be bottoming out too close to the ball. I'll have to review "How to hit the driver further" thread.

7i

 

5w

 

5i

 

Driver

 

4i

[JonMA1]

I decided to record my practice this week and post it here. It's not terribly structured, but I'm just trying to take advantage of the few snowless days we have left.

Sat 11/18: 45 mins 4i full swing. 50% effort… worked on low point

Sun 11/19: 40 mins putting (my putting strip)

Mon 11/20: Took some partial swings with the 4H, 10 mins. Went to a flight simulator and recorded numbers. 80% effort

Tues 11/21: 18 hole practice round (4hrs). Lots or repeated full swing shots. Worked on ascending driver club head  AOA. Low point with mid-long irons. Short game - contact with ground, GS bunkers. Putting - lag

Wed 11/22: Partial swings with wedges, various distances between 40-100 yards (1hr)

Thurs 11/23: 7i 80% effort working on club face control 10 mins. 
Putting - 20 mins with 10’, 10 mins with 4’ specifically slow back, slow forward keeping the putter face square. 10 mins 18’ lag. (total 40 mins)

Fri 11/24: Played 18 holes (3.5hrs). No practice strokes.

Sat 11/25: 3/4 shots to full shots with the 7i. Working on key 5. Putting - 1hr -  15’ lag, 10’ and 4’.

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As for the putting practice... I know it's just a putting strip and it's no where near as difficult as a real green, but I'm up over 50% on 10' putts. I sank 16 of 20 Thursday and 13 of 17 today straight 10 footers (took video). I also added some imperfections to the strip and putted from different angles from off the strip just to make things a bit less predictable.

As for the driver practice... during the round I played on Friday, the driver felt very good. I'm teeing the ball just a hair forward in my stance and trying to get the low point a few inches behind the ball so that I'm hitting up. Drives seem to be going a bit farther with less sidespin.... angled axis spin along with a higher launch angle. Kept the ball "between the ropes" off the tee.

[billchao]

@JonMA1, forgive me if this has been discussed, but what are you working on in your full swing? What's your priority piece? Your practice seems to be all over the place with no focus. You worked on low point one day, driver AoA another (which you did with full swings?), and then some Key #5 work on yet another day? You're a 20, right? Is Key #5 really your biggest priority?

How are you practicing? You seem to spend a lot of time doing it, but are you doing it effectively?