Unplayable in an Irrigation Pipe

[sofingaw]

All, Today I hit a tee shot into what I believe was an underground irrigation or drainage pipe of some type. I'll try to describe it as clearly as I can. A metal grate which normally covers the access to this pipe was halfway off the hole in the ground. After a long search, we actually decided to check this pipe, and the ball was in the pipe, 18" underground! I retrieved the ball, took a drop within two club lengths, and finished the hole with a 6, with no penalty stroke. Was I correct to take a free drop, since the obstruction was manmade, and there was no possible way to get a club on the ball, or should it have been played as a standard unplayable penalty, i.e. up against a tree root (natural obstruction)? Also, this game is crazy as hell! Haha

[saevel25]

by rule 24-2, the drop should have been 1 club length, but you are correct. your ball was in or on an immovable obstruction.

Quote:

" Through the Green : If the ball lies through the green , the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief . The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green . When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief , the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green ."

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sofingaw

All,

Today I hit a tee shot into what I believe was an underground irrigation or drainage pipe of some type. I'll try to describe it as clearly as I can.

A metal grate which normally covers the access to this pipe was halfway off the hole in the ground. After a long search, we actually decided to check this pipe, and the ball was in the pipe, 18" underground!

I retrieved the ball, took a drop within two club lengths, and finished the hole with a 6, with no penalty stroke.

Was I correct to take a free drop, since the obstruction was manmade, and there was no possible way to get a club on the ball, or should it have been played as a standard unplayable penalty, i.e. up against a tree root (natural obstruction)?

Also, this game is crazy as hell! Haha

Free relief - yes.  2 clublengths - no.

The procedure when obtaining relief without penalty is to establish the nearest point not closer to the hole from where the ball lies in the obstruction which gives complete relief from that obstruction for lie, stance and area of intended swing (known as nearest point of relief ).  There is only one spot on the golf course which meets that requirement.  When that point is established, then you may drop within one clublength of that spot, again not closer to the hole.  The ball when dropped must first hit the courses within that area, and it may not roll more than 2 clublengths and it may not come to rest closer to the hole than that NPR.  You are only assured of relief from that obstruction.  That does not necessarily assure you of a good lie, or even of a playable lie.

[sofingaw]

Thank you guys for the answers! Here's an interesting question to follow up. If I dropped within 2 club lengths, but accidentally met the requirements for a proper drop (meaning, I dropped the ball, unknowingly, within the 1 clublength of the nearest point providing complete relief) is it still a proper drop? In short, if its dropped in a legal spot, does it matter if I knew it was legal or not? Once again, thanks! Interesting!!

[saevel25]

Yes i believe so, because the rule says, must be dropped with in 1 club length. Doesn't matter if you put two down, as long as the ball comes to rest with in 1, your fine with regards to the rules. But if you proceed to hit a ball dropped outside of one club length, you have issues.

[sofingaw]

To clarify, the original 2 club lengths was from the edge if the obstruction, not necessarily the nearest point of (in this case, stance) relief from the obstruction.

[sofingaw]

Cool. This is one crazy game, I tells ya!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sofingaw

Thank you guys for the answers!

Here's an interesting question to follow up.

If I dropped within 2 club lengths, but accidentally met the requirements for a proper drop (meaning, I dropped the ball, unknowingly, within the 1 clublength of the nearest point providing complete relief) is it still a proper drop?

In short, if its dropped in a legal spot, does it matter if I knew it was legal or not?

Once again, thanks! Interesting!!

Yes.  The rule only requires that you drop in the area as required by the applicable rule.  It isn't even required that you measure as long as the requirements are met .

[Dormie1360]

To clarify, the original 2 club lengths was from the edge if the obstruction, not necessarily the nearest point of (in this case, stance) relief from the obstruction.

FYI. Read the last paragraph of this decision. Vertical distance is considered when determining the nearest point of relief. Can be an issue if the pipe is on an angle and the ball not by the opening. 24-2b/11 Ball Lying on Elevated Part of Immovable Obstruction Q.A ball comes to rest on the elevated part of an immovable obstruction, such as the walkway of a bridge over a deep hollow. What is the ruling? A.If the player elects to take relief, vertical distance is disregarded. The nearest point of relief (Point X) is deemed to be at the point on the ground directly beneath where the ball lies on the obstruction, provided the player would not have interference, as defined in Rule 24-2a, at this point. The player may proceed under Rule 24-2b by dropping the ball within one club-length of Point X. In a situation where there would be interference with some part of the obstruction (e.g., a supporting column) for a ball positioned at Point X, the ball is deemed to lie at Point X. The player may proceed under Rule 24-2b by determining the nearest point of relief for a ball lying at Point X. The procedure is different where a ball lies underground (e.g., in a tunnel). In such a case, all distance, whether vertical or horizontal, is taken into account when determining the nearest point of relief. In some cases, the nearest point of relief would be near the entrance to the tunnel, and in other cases it would be above the tunnel and would need to be estimated.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The procedure when obtaining relief without penalty is to establish the nearest point not closer to the hole from where the ball lies in the obstruction which gives complete relief from that obstruction for lie, stance and area of intended swing (known as nearest point of relief).  There is only one spot on the golf course which meets that requirement.

Most often this is the case but not always. It depends on the situation, and sometimes there are even much more than only one NPR.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Yes i believe so, because the rule says, must be dropped with in 1 club length. Doesn't matter if you put two down, as long as the ball comes to rest with in 1, your fine with regards to the rules. But if you proceed to hit a ball dropped outside of one club length, you have issues.

It depends where your ball first hit the ground. If it hit the ground within 1 cl from NPR (nearest point of relief) and not closer to the hole it is fine. However, if it hit the ground outside that area it is an illegal drop even if the ball ended up in the correct area. See Rules 20-2b and 24-2b(i).

Furthermore, the ball may roll up to 2 cl's from the spot it first struck the course, so it does not have to remain within the 1 cl area from NPR as long as it hits that area when dropped.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

FYI. Read the last paragraph of this decision. Vertical distance is considered when determining the nearest point of relief. Can be an issue if the pipe is on an angle and the ball not by the opening.

Not in this case as there is no way a player could squeeze himself into the pipe. See Dec 24-2b/12:

24-2b/12
Ball in Drainpipe Under Course; Entrance to Drainpipe Is Out of Bounds

Q. A ball enters an underground drainpipe the entrance to which is out of
bounds. The ball is found in the drainpipe under an area that is through the
green. What is the ruling?

A. Under Rule 24-2b(i), the player is entitled to drop the ball, without
penalty, within one club-length of the spot on the ground immediately above
its resting place in the drainpipe , but not nearer the hole and not in a hazard
or on a putting green. A boundary line extends vertically upwards and
downwards – see D efinition of “Out of Bounds”. (continues)

EDIT: Having thought this a bit more I am no longer sure what you meant, John. The NPR is exacty what it says, so if the ball is in an underground pipe the NPR is the spot closest to the ball that is on the ground, regardless of the location of the ball in relation to the pipe. Maybe this is what you meant?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The procedure when obtaining relief without penalty is to establish the nearest point not closer to the hole from where the ball lies in the obstruction which gives complete relief from that obstruction for lie, stance and area of intended swing (known as nearest point of relief).  There is only one spot on the golf course which meets that requirement.

Most often this is the case but not always. It depends on the situation, and sometimes there are even much more than only one NPR.

It is so rare as to be not worth mentioning.  If you were measuring with a tape measure, or even with a  long string, you would find that there is one and only one correct place.  Using a club it may be hard to measure accurately, although the assumption is that you still make your best effort to do so.  This is one reason why, as an on course rules official, I always had my string with with me, both for that reason and for measuring who was away in match play.  I still carry a string in my golf bag.

[colin007]

more than only one NPR.

NPR?? Lefty pinko commies!! Lol...

[Dormie1360]

Not in this case as there is no way a player could squeeze himself into the pipe. See Dec 24-2b/12: 24-2b/12 Ball in Drainpipe Under Course; Entrance to Drainpipe Is Out of Bounds Q. A ball enters an underground drainpipe the entrance to which is out of bounds. The ball is found in the drainpipe under an area that is through the green. What is the ruling? A. Under Rule 24-2b(i), the player is entitled to drop the ball, without penalty, within one club-length of the spot on the ground immediately above its resting place in the drainpipe , but not nearer the hole and not in a hazard or on a putting green. A boundary line extends vertically upwards and downwards – see D efinition of “Out of Bounds”. (continues) EDIT: Having thought this a bit more I am no longer sure what you meant, John. The NPR is exacty what it says, so if the ball is in an underground pipe the NPR is the spot closest to the ball that is on the ground, regardless of the location of the ball in relation to the pipe. Maybe this is what you meant?

I think you said what I meant. :-). Vertical distance is considered when a ball is underground when determining the NPR. If the ground above the ball is OB, hazard, putting green, etc., the NPR would exclude these areas. The point is to think 3 dimensionally when determining the NPR when your ball is underground and you know it's position. Don't always assume you find the NPR using the entrance of an obstruction that goes underground when taking relief.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It is so rare as to be not worth mentioning.  If you were measuring with a tape measure, or even with a  long string, you would find that there is one and only one correct place.  Using a club it may be hard to measure accurately, although the assumption is that you still make your best effort to do so.  This is one reason why, as an on course rules official, I always had my string with with me, both for that reason and for measuring who was away in match play.  I still carry a string in my golf bag.

A ball sits in the middle of the top of a small sprinkler head. As there is no stance interference, the npr will almost certainly be anywhere on a semi-circular arc centred on the sprinkler head with a 6" (approx) radius. ie an infinite number of nprs

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It is so rare as to be not worth mentioning.  If you were measuring with a tape measure, or even with a  long string, you would find that there is one and only one correct place.  Using a club it may be hard to measure accurately, although the assumption is that you still make your best effort to do so.  This is one reason why, as an on course rules official, I always had my string with with me, both for that reason and for measuring who was away in match play.  I still carry a string in my golf bag.

A ball sits in the middle of the top of a small sprinkler head. As there is no stance interference, the npr will almost certainly be anywhere on a semi-circular arc centred on the sprinkler head with a 6" (approx) radius. ie an infinite number of nprs

Again, incredibly rare that it would be exactly in the center.  It's a situation where I've never had to measure anything anyway, as it's easy to drop within one clublength just by eyeballing it.

You must have sprinklers with little dents in the center to make it stay there.