Gulbis - Bad Flag Etiquette

[is 120 respectable]

first of all... who cares! there are so many issues within this country and throughout the world and people are arguing over a photograph. This is just an example of post 9-11 patriotism... "these colors don't run", "freedom isn't free".

That piece of fabric means a lot to a lot of people. Not to mention the millions who have died fighting for those colors. This is a golf forum and I'm not going to get too political, but "just a piece of fabric" and "who cares!"....... ouch I'm always surprised when Americans have this kind of attitude. Sometimes I think Americans in general take "these colors" and "freedom" for granted a little, and your post helps prove this theory.

[alf174]

The correlation to military history is an acute and obvious example but its more than that. Have you ever traveled outside of this country? Into areas of poverty that you could never believe existed and don't exist in this country? Have you seen those TV commercials of the children that live in conditions that are unfathomable? I have. They actually exist, very near to our southern borders. It was after visiting these places that I gained an appreciation for the US and everything that has led up to its current condition. Sure, there is always room for improvement but the American flag is the primary representation of that appreciation.

BTW, I don't watch Fox and am not an NRA member.

[mcecki]

first of all... who cares! there are so many issues within this country and throughout the world and people are arguing over a photograph. This is just an example of post 9-11 patriotism... "these colors don't run", "freedom isn't free".

I'm not even American, and I'm absolutely disgusted by this post. It's not just a piece of fabric, it's a symbol of a great land whose people have unlimited opportunities due to those who fought to gain freedom. May sound harsh, but if anybody was to burn an American flag, I believe they should be burned themselves.

That being said, I don't believe Natalie had anti-American ideas in mind sitting on the flag like that, she was probably just told to sit with the trophy and have the picture taken. I'm sure if she really thought about what she was doing, she would have re-arranged the scenery.

[DDBowdoin]

oh man... you had to bring up that example. 3rd world nations... hmm, world bank... IMF? Have our actions kept these nations in a world of poverty? Ummmmm, the answer is yes. Our nation was founded on the pillaging of other nations and cultures. I'm grateful for what I have in this country but don't compare our situation to others in the world who are suffering because of our foreign policies. Its a complete double edge sword, we send these people financial aid and materials and them strip them of their natural resources and institute economic crippling policies that inhibit their ability to grow... all in the name of economic growth. This is all done through the IMF and the world bank who are constantly financing these nations infrastructure development with loan policies they can't possibly pay back.

Like I said before I value what I have here... but you have to be recognize how our nation came to what it is today and how we continue to remain a global power. You can value this country and can't deny that history... so when you sit here and spout some jingoistic, patriotic spiel you come off completely ignorant... or you just aren't paying attention

[lamebums]

(Someone lock this before it turns into a political bitch-fest.)

[alf174]

oh man... you had to bring up that example. 3rd world nations... hmm, world bank... IMF? Have our actions kept these nations in a world of poverty? Ummmmm, the answer is yes. Our nation was founded on the pillaging of other nations and cultures. I'm grateful for what I have in this country but don't compare our situation to others in the world who are suffering because of our foreign policies. Its a complete double edge sword, we send these people financial aid and materials and them strip them of their natural resources and institute economic crippling policies that inhibit their ability to grow... all in the name of economic growth. This is all done through the IMF and the world bank who are constantly financing these nations infrastructure development with loan policies they can't possibly pay back.

You've done so well until you end each post with a personal attack. Age and maturity again?

And I think I will join the NRA. Because I can.

[Clubswinger21]

(Someone lock this before it turns into a political bitch-fest.)

no shit...

[thementhol]

(Someone lock this before it turns into a political bitch-fest.)

It already is

chill out, it is a careless mistake. She will learn if she knows people are pissed off.

[DDBowdoin]

I don't think she cares if people are pissed, we'll see how corporate America responds... its all that matters

[Undr Par]

the only thing wrong with this picture is, that the flag wasn't my face....

only kidding guys......it probably is disgraceful to many people whom have fought for this great country......

the only issue I have is that those who seem to preach about America being so great and having respect for the flag and get mad at things like this picture...., have "God Bless America", "United we Stand" etc.... stickers all over their cars and are the same people who cut you off, give you the finger, tailgate you, don't let you out at a intersection etc.... if people practiced wht they preached I think alot of things would be much better

[Roody]

Seriously, are some of you that concerned that the sanctity of the sacrifices of our soldiers present and past is being destroyed by a 98 lb woman sitting on the flag? Don't you think that there are other things in this world that could use your concern? Like Terrorism? Crappy health care? The Iraq war? Darfur?

It's one thing to not care about a symbol, but it's also something else to get so fixated on it that it steers your attention away from what should be important. Think about it.

[GoingfortheGreen]

Have you ever traveled outside of this country? Into areas of poverty that you could never believe existed and don't exist in this country? Have you seen those TV commercials of the children that live in conditions that are unfathomable? I have. They actually exist, very near to our southern borders.

Let's hope the Southern border you were referring to was Louisiana. As a naturalized citizen (living in the US since 1990), I was quite dismayed to not only see the conditions of poverty that exist in that state/city (New Orleans), but also our government's response to Katrina. But, that is an entirely different thread. What I'm saying is that abject poverty exists in the US as well. We are not immune...

[alf174]

Roody, you and BBdowoin both make valid points and I agree with many of them. I have never liked the whole IRAQ matter, generally disagree with our foreign policy, and think its shameful how this country's government treats some of its own citizens (as in the Katrina aftermath); and I consider myself a right wing conservative who usually votes Republican. But I believe that respect for everything here that is good (and bad) has to start somewhere and for me its the flag.

I'll get off my soap box now.

[Roody]

...and I consider myself a right wing conservative who usually votes Republican. But I believe that respect for everything here that is good (and bad) has to start somewhere and for me its the flag.

Yes, I'm not saying let's all go out and disrespect our flag today. By no means am I asserting that what the flag stands for is not important.

My father served in Vietnam and was an inch away from having his head blown off in combat. Do I think what Natalie did is showing him any disrespect? Of course not. I'd rather focus my anger and outrage on other things that should be important to people, but sometimes get drowned out by crap like this.

[Undr Par]

with no offense meant toward anyone, I really wonder how much through out the day we think about the flag and what it represents until situations like this pop up?

I think most people what to appear Holyer then Thou in situations like this when they occur, when really they could care less......

I think we agrue over petty things everyday like this, instead of trying to become better people ourselves, treating my fellow man with respect etc...., those are matters that are to be agrued about imho.....not this picture.

[td67mustang]

Being a photographer (hobby) I would have shot this cropped so you couldnt see the bottom of the flag (part thats on the ground). That may have been the original idea. Not that it makes it right, but if this phot0 hadnt been taken like this and been cropped a little better this wouldnt be disscussed. .02

[hoopshot]

It wasn't a major.

Oops, spaced out there. I meant to say first event.

--Will

[iacas]

first of all... who cares!

This question has been answered already. You've got the names of at least ten or twenty people on here who care already, and there are millions of others.

there are so many issues within this country and throughout the world and people are arguing over a photograph.

Discussing this issue does not mean we're ignoring any of the others.

It's just a piece of fabric.

Except that it isn't. It's a symbol, and a powerful one at that. It is NOT just a piece of cloth. Pieces of cloths don't have laws attached to them.

This debate has been going on for some time and I believe the supreme court deemed it unconstitutional to not be allowed to burn the American flag...

That's not even the same issue. Natalie is not making a political statement here.

Freedom isn't free.

And goofy cliches won't get you anywhere.

Instead of tackling issues such as a social inequality, income disparity, and a corrupt health care system we are worrying about the respect of the flag.

Again, discussing this does not mean we're not actively doing other things as well.

Stop wearing your patriotism on your sleeve.

I dare say you know next to nothing about anyone's political beliefs, so accusing those who disagree with you of wearing patriotism on their sleeves is a poor technique and in incredibly poor taste as well.

I don't understand how people make the correlation between our military history and "protecting our flag".

Read some history. Should do you some good.

Will someone please explain how the soldiers who gave their life in Iraq are protecting American "values".

Let's stick to topic.

take a step back and stop watching Fox News and reading your NRA Members Journal

Let's stop making stupid generalizations about people you've never met.

(Someone lock this before it turns into a political bitch-fest.)

That's kind of the point. So no, it won't be locked.

Seriously, are some of you that concerned that the sanctity of the sacrifices of our soldiers present and past is being destroyed by a 98 lb woman sitting on the flag?

You've missed some critical steps. The flag is a symbol that represents a bunch of things.

Don't you think that there are other things in this world that could use your concern? Like Terrorism? Crappy health care? The Iraq war? Darfur?

Again, discussion of one issue does not preclude anyone from discussing or caring about other things. You're discussing this - should we assume you don't care about anything else in the world, too?

It's one thing to not care about a symbol, but it's also something else to get so fixated on it that it steers your attention away from what should be important. Think about it.

I don't see anyone getting fixated. There are millions of shades of grey between "fixated" and "not caring at all."

Yes, I'm not saying let's all go out and disrespect our flag today. By no means am I asserting that what the flag stands for is not important.

You seem to be. The flag is to be treated in a certain way, and you're suggesting it's not important to care for those rules.

My father served in Vietnam and was an inch away from having his head blown off in combat. Do I think what Natalie did is showing him any disrespect? Of course not.

Your father probably disagrees, and if he doesn't, the vast majority of the guys he served with disagree with you.

I think most people what to appear Holyer then Thou in situations like this when they occur, when really they could care less...

That may be true of most people. But let's keep from making assumptions about people here.

For my part, I work every day at becoming a better golfer, husband, father, and citizen. I hold doors and try to stay to the left at lights so people making right turns can squeak by. I don't take symbols like the flag lightly, despite disagreeing with some of the things the people in power in our country do (that will never change - we'll all always disagree with something ). You know what they say about assumptions... Let's keep this discussion not to politics but to the flag and the picture.