Forum Profile Handicap Indices....

[Slice of Life]

There are likely prizes, though. And Pakoh, I don't know who changed it, but "666" is not valid, and you should read [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/a/faq#user_handicap_index]http://thesandtrap.com/a/faq#user_handicap_index[/URL] .

That's alright, I have 1 week to get to scratch. Went +1 on my last 6 holes today, and that's because a birdie putt circled the hole and lipped out. So I'm getting there...lol

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

You are saying that someone who averages 20 over can be an 18.  And by your count, the 7(bogeys) + 10 (doubles) + 1 (triple) gets him there.  Which obviously it does.  But it seems unlikely to me that a person who hits double or worse on 6 of the 18 holes gets that many pars per round and a birdie every other round.

Dude, someone who averages 100 can be an 18.

Imagine a guy who shoots 96, 97, 98 and 102, 103, 104. Average is 100. Best half of his scores average out to 97.

(97 - 73.9) * (113/144) * 0.96 = 17.4 index. So it's a "17 handicapper" (who gets 22 shots when he plays the black tees).

(98 - 73.9) * (113/144) * 0.96 = 18.2 index, so still safely "an 18 handicapper."

And that's just the rating from Whispering Woods.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by iacas

Dude, someone who averages 100 can be an 18.

Imagine a guy who shoots 96, 97, 98 and 102, 103, 104. Average is 100. Best half of his scores average out to 97.

(97 - 73.9) * (113/144) * 0.96 = 17.4 index. So it's a "17 handicapper" (who gets 22 shots when he plays the black tees).

(98 - 73.9) * (113/144) * 0.96 = 18.2 index, so still safely "an 18 handicapper."

I agree.  I was arguing in the other direction.  I wasn't saying that since he averages 20 over his handicap should be higher. I was saying the opposite. That an 18 capper would average higher than 20 over par.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I agree.  I was arguing in the other direction.  I wasn't saying that since he averages 20 over his handicap should be higher. I was saying the opposite. That an 18 capper would average higher than 20 over par.

Okay: (84-67.1) * (113/104) * 0.96 = 17.6

Those courses exist and they're par 72s, or 71s, and there's a guy whose ten best average 84.

It's just math. :)

[inthecup]

I like a reasonable accurate handicap on the forum.  It lest you know where a person is on their journey.  Mine is official, accurate and fairly up to day.  I am glad to report trending down also.

The slope of the course is extremely important.  I play regularly (mainly)  on 3 courses with a 135 slope from the tees I play from.  Last night I played on a 116 slope course.  Totally different, not nearly as penal.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by iacas

Okay: (84-67.1) * (113/104) * 0.96 = 17.6

Those courses exist and they're par 72s, or 71s, and there's a guy whose ten best average 84.

It's just math. :)

Yeah, I get that a course being hard or easy enough can change the differential and hence the handicap.  But your examples are probably the exception more than the rule.  Also - he actually gave us his last 5 differentials and they averaged to be 23.8.

And that was a bit beside the point I was trying to make.  And I'm starting to think it was only interesting to me because I must play a different style of golf - whereby I make an awful lot of bogeys with a only a few pars, a few doubles and the occasional triple sprinkled in.  A little more steady you might say.

I just thought 4.5 pars and .5 birdies per round sounded awfully good for an 18 - probably because that is better than what I get and I am a 16.5.  With all those good numbers, he's going to need a good bit of doubles and triples to get that average differential up to 24.  And it seems that someone that prone to doubles and triples wouldn't be capable of the pars/birdies he's getting. Or conversely, someone capable of averaging that many pars/birdies wouldn't be so prone to doubles and triples.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I just thought 4.5 pars and .5 birdies per round sounded awfully good for an 18 - probably because that is better than what I get and I am a 16.5.

It doesn't to me. It sounds awfully normal for a bogey golfer to make those kinds of scores with that frequency.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I just thought 4.5 pars and .5 birdies per round sounded awfully good for an 18 - probably because that is better than what I get and I am a 16.5.  With all those good numbers, he's going to need a good bit of doubles and triples to get that average differential up to 24.  And it seems that someone that prone to doubles and triples wouldn't be capable of the pars/birdies he's getting. Or conversely, someone capable of averaging that many pars/birdies wouldn't be so prone to doubles and triples.

Meh...I had 6 pars yesterday, and a lipped out birdie and ended up shooting a 92. I can see how that could happen...my 7s and 8s got the best of me lol

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Meh...I had 6 pars yesterday, and a lipped out birdie and ended up shooting a 92. I can see how that could happen...my 7s and 8s got the best of me lol

This^^

I'm only using Slice as an example here because I've played with him. In cases where guys like us are longer off of the tee than many average golfers, yet we're off in one aspect of our game, our scores can vary greatly. I say this because in our case, we can easily make GIR on longer courses. However, if we get into trouble with our drives, we're easily giving back 1-3 strokes on one bad hole. So to say that going Par, Par, Double, Par, Bogey, Birdie, Bogie, etc. is not normal for a higher handicap player is not accurate. I've played 7 holes in a row with 1 putts and was -2, only to fall apart and end up shooting 81 for my round. Hell, I think I had a good 1 putt streak when I played with Slice too (I forgot how many) and ended up having several blow up holes (a few doubles) with 7 pars and still shot 84 I think it was.

I guess I easily see the numbers that the other guy was posting as making sense because I was right there when I was an 18 and still have really sporadic and inconsistent rounds today.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Spyder

This^^

I'm only using Slice as an example here because I've played with him. In cases where guys like us are longer off of the tee than many average golfers, yet we're off in one aspect of our game, our scores can vary greatly. I say this because in our case, we can easily make GIR on longer courses. However, if we get into trouble with our drives, we're easily giving back 1-3 strokes on one bad hole. So to say that going Par, Par, Double, Par, Bogey, Birdie, Bogie, etc. is not normal for a higher handicap player is not accurate. I've played 7 holes in a row with 1 putts and was -2, only to fall apart and end up shooting 81 for my round. Hell, I think I had a good 1 putt streak when I played with Slice too (I forgot how many) and ended up having several blow up holes (a few doubles) with 7 pars and still shot 84 I think it was.

I guess I easily see the numbers that the other guy was posting as making sense because I was right there when I was an 18 and still have really sporadic and inconsistent rounds today.

Yeah, you had five 1 putts in a row, and lipped one out that would have eventually extended it to 7.

I can be streaky. I finished yesterdays round at +1 through the final 6....unfortunately I was +6 through the first 3 of the back nine. lol

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Meh...I had 6 pars yesterday, and a lipped out birdie and ended up shooting a 92. I can see how that could happen...my 7s and 8s got the best of me lol

Originally Posted by Spyder

However, if we get into trouble with our drives, we're easily giving back 1-3 strokes on one bad hole. So to say that going Par, Par, Double, Par, Bogey, Birdie, Bogie, etc. is not normal for a higher handicap player is not accurate.

I stand corrected!  I think I applied my own experience on the course to a belief that it was the norm.

Having said that, I'm curious about the way you play.  I think of 7's and 8's as absolute score KILLERS - to be avoided at all costs.  Having multiple triples or quads during a round seems a lot more detrimental to the score than several pars would be beneficial to the score.  If getting into trouble with your tee shots is causing so many blow up holes - why wouldn't you tee off with a club more likely to keep you out of trouble?

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I stand corrected!  I think I applied my own experience on the course to a belief that it was the norm.

Having said that, I'm curious about the way you play.  I think of 7's and 8's as absolute score KILLERS - to be avoided at all costs.  Having multiple triples or quads during a round seems a lot more detrimental to the score than several pars would be beneficial to the score.  If getting into trouble with your tee shots is causing so many blow up holes - why wouldn't you tee off with a club more likely to keep you out of trouble?

It's not always just OB tee shots. I can hit a perfect tee shot and end up with an 8.

Matter of fact, I hit a drive OB, then duck hooked my 3rd from the tee, hit a 5 iron to the rough off the green, and chipped in for bogey. Followed by a great drive, a pulled iron into garbage cabbage rough, a crappy effort to get out of that (x2), a pitch onto the green, and a 2 putt for a triple. Fickle game, this golf...lol

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I stand corrected!  I think I applied my own experience on the course to a belief that it was the norm.

Having said that, I'm curious about the way you play.  I think of 7's and 8's as absolute score KILLERS - to be avoided at all costs.  Having multiple triples or quads during a round seems a lot more detrimental to the score than several pars would be beneficial to the score.  If getting into trouble with your tee shots is causing so many blow up holes - why wouldn't you tee off with a club more likely to keep you out of trouble?

That's the best question to ask. I'm hoping I get it straightened out with Erik or Mike this Saturday. If not, I'll be teeing off with 3W or 4i all day. The sad part is, I've shot 80 on a 6,600 yard course using nothing but irons. I've also shot 100 using driver on courses that were 6,300 yards and shot <80 on both with driver before as well. My 4i is usually good for 210-220 so it's not detrimental to tee off with it. The problem is my brain takes over and mocks my common sense and I give in and try to get those additional 60-70 yards. That's when stuff happens... good or bad.

[mad max]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I find this very interesting.  I don't keep stats like this (all of a sudden wish I did) - but I think I can comfortably say that I DO NOT average half a birdie and almost 5 pars per round.  But my handicap is less than yours.  That sounds like really good golf to me.  I'd bet I play 4-5 rounds in between birdies.

You say "I don't think many scratch golfers average .5 eagles and 4.5 birdies per round."  Sure they don't.  But I don't think many 18 caps are getting your stats either. Five of 18 holes played at under par?  And that is average for you?

I doubt many 18 caps can cherry pick two holes in an average round to come out to under par - much less five.  What is the average score for an 18 cap?  95 or so? If your average score is 23 over and 5 of those are under par and 7 of them at 7 over (per your bogies/round), you need to shot 17 over for the remaning 6 holes - or triple bogey average.  As an uneducated guess, I'd say that someone so prone to triple bogeys is unlikely to shoot that many pars and birdies.  Seems like Equitable Stroke Control would start to play some part in this.

Maybe we just take a different route to the end score.  I guess your good hole are better than my good ones and your bad holes are worse than my bad ones and it all evens out.  That is pretty interesting.

After seeing the responses after I got home I decided to see what my last 20 rounds were.  I came up with 95.55 gross score on my last 20.

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I find this very interesting.  I don't keep stats like this (all of a sudden wish I did) - but I think I can comfortably say that I DO NOT average half a birdie and almost 5 pars per round.  But my handicap is less than yours.  That sounds like really good golf to me.  I'd bet I play 4-5 rounds in between birdies.

His stats look good because he doesn't play much. Those averages would likely be lower with more reported scores if his HI is legit. I was just looking through my stats and sorting them by last 5 rounds brings up my scoring averages considerably.

I get these charts from my online handicap calculator.  I only get the score chart when I enter the score hole by hole so you are correct that I play more rounds than I show in my stats.  I would guess that I do 2/3 of my rounds hole by hole and the other 1/3 by just entering my front/back.  I am not selective in how I do this I will do it if I have the scorecard but my last two rounds a net 92 and a net 67 it was a tournament and they wanted the scorecards so I didn't have them when I got home but I could remember my front and back.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

His stats look good because he doesn't play much. Those averages would likely be lower with more reported scores if his HI is legit. I was just looking through my stats and sorting them by last 5 rounds brings up my scoring averages considerably.

I think I see what you mean - but I'm not totally sure I follow.  If you were trending in a good direction that would make sense.  But it also sounds like you are saying that an 18 cap who doesn't play very often is good a pars and birdies.  Maybe if he is actually a pretty good golfer, but due to not playing much has many blow-up holes since he doesn't play much?

Look at his stats again.  You are misinterpreting something.  Max is averaging a half a birdie and 4.5 pars per round.  The remaining 13 holes are over par.  He could very easily be an 18 handicap with 7 bogies and 5 doubles and 1 worse than double per round (which is about what his chart seems to indicate - 7 + 10 + 3 = 20 over par).

Fourputt in my chart they have a column for triple and then they have a stat for other.  I am proud to announce that I average less than one quadruple bogey or worse per round.  But I do average about 1.25 triples.

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I must be.  Maybe I overestimated what it takes to be an 18 cap.  I'm coming up with something similar to you - but it doesn't sound right to me.

You are saying that someone who averages 20 over can be an 18.  And by your count, the 7(bogeys) + 10 (doubles) + 1 (triple) gets him there.  Which obviously it does.  But it seems unlikely to me that a person who hits double or worse on 6 of the 18 holes gets that many pars per round and a birdie every other round.

But by my numbers, it's even worse. I've heard that a person plays to their handicap once every 5 rounds or so.  And if so, I doubt they would shoot within 2 shots of it on average (which would be your 20 over).  I don't know what the answer is, but in my math above I estimated more like 23 over as the average.  By his own stats, his average is 23.82 over. By these numbers, he would need to go from 6 or 7 over par after 12 holes - then go to almost 24 over in those last 6 holes - or about 18 over for these 6 holes.  That is triple bogey for all 6!  Who makes triple bogey for a third of your round on average, but is good enough to get 5 pars and a possible birdie?

Does that sound common to everyone? Maybe I am having trouble getting my mind around it because I just play a different style of golf than he does. I am close to an 18 now and was right around 18 for about a year.  And in my experience - if I get 4 or 5 pars and maybe even a birdie in a given round, I'm basically shooting or breaking 90 that day. And Max is doing this on average - but shooting 96.

I seem to be the odd man out, and hijacking the thread, so I'll drop it.  But when I read it - the numbers didn't work for me and I thought it was interesting.

I do think we play differently.  I can hit the ball a long way for my skill level.  I go for it when I shouldn't but sometimes it works out and sometimes it does not.  Last round, one that I didn't enter the score by hole I had 2 12's and a 10.  I think I still had at least 4 pars but 10's and 12's will kill your score.  My HC and especially my anti HC would be higher if it wasn't for ESC

[mad max]

I am going to post my last 50 rounds for anyone that is interested.  I did notice that I do play a course that I feel is rated incorectly for my game (Lincoln Park) 65.1 107.

This is a short course that has many birdie opurtunitys but anything long is most likely gone and some places if you miss the fairway you will have little chance of finding your ball because of high grass.  The sort par 4's are all doglegs that unless you can shape the ball accurately you have to tee off with a mid iron.  It also has a par three's of 193 229 and 230.   I have only two rounds since 2010 at that course but it is possible that this may have influenced my stats before that because I have played there in the past.  I guess I am a wannabe vanity capper because I never get a good differential at that course so I don't play it much.

Date New Index Front Back Gross Strokes Net Score HDCP Differential Course/Tees Rating Slope 1 Edit 07/14/13 18.0 49/62 111 19 92 38.5 Metropolitan Golf Links (white) 69.80 121 2 Edit 06/23/13 17.8 44/43 87 20 67 14.3 Boundary Oak (White) 71.00 126 3 Edit 05/23/13 18.3 47/42 89 20 69 15.7 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 4 Edit 05/19/13 18.5 52/47 99 18 81 23.1 Skywest Golf Course (Yellow) 68.30 116 5 Edit 05/17/13 17.8 44/56 100 17 83 36.9 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 6 Edit 04/21/13 17.8 45/45 90 22 68 17.9 Hiddenbrooke (WHITE JAN 2013) 68.80 134 7 Edit 03/28/13 18.3 48/47 95 19 76 22.1 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 8 Edit 03/24/13 17.5 46/46 92 18 74 23.6 Santa Clara Golf & Tennis Club (middle 2010) 68.20 114 9 Edit 11/11/12 17.5 47/41 88 19 69 17.8 Legacy Golf Club (White) 69.30 119 10 Edit 11/09/12 18.0 55/51 106 19 87 34.8 Legacy Golf Club (White) 69.30 119 11 Edit 11/08/12 18.0 50/46 96 17 79 25.7 Angel Park Mountain (WHITE) 66.00 110 12 Edit 11/07/12 17.4 51/52 103 17 86 33.3 Angel Park Palms (Champ. (Blue)) 67.10 115 13 Edit 10/15/12 16.9 45/46 91 19 72 17.5 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 14 Edit 10/14/12 17.3 46/47 93 19 74 21.9 Tilden Park Golf Course (White (2012)) 69.20 123 15 Edit 05/20/12 17.3 45/47 92 18 74 21.9 Monarch Bay (MEMBER) 69.10 118 16 Edit 05/09/12 17.3 48/50 98 19 79 24.9 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 17 Edit 03/21/12 17.3 49/43 92 19 73 19.4 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 18 Edit 03/09/12 17.5 47/50 97 19 78 21.2 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 19 Edit 03/04/12 17.6 48/50 98 19 79 23.5 Franklin Canyon GC (Middle) 69.60 127 20 Edit 09/16/11 17.1 50/44 94 19 75 20.3 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 21 Edit 09/11/11 17.2 46/43 89 18 71 19.5 Earl Fry Golf Course (Blue) 68.80 117 22 Edit 08/21/11 17.5 50/41 91 20 71 19.7 Blue Rock Springs W. (Blue) 68.70 128 23 Edit 07/08/11 17.8 44/46 90 20 70 17.5 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 24 Edit 06/27/11 18.4 42/50 92 21 71 15.7 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 25 Edit 06/26/11 19.1 44/54 98 20 78 26.6 Monarch Bay (MEMBER) 69.50 121 26 Edit 06/14/11 19.1 46/49 95 21 74 22.1 Harding Park Golf Course (White) 71.10 122 27 Edit 04/10/11 19.2 45/39 84 21 63 14.8 Tilden Park Golf Course (White) 68.30 120 28 Edit 03/20/11 20.1 58/56 114 22 92 39.2 Franklin Canyon GC (MIDDLE) 69.60 125 29 Edit 02/04/11 20.1 46/52 98 19 79 31.6 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 30 Edit 11/13/10 20.1 49/45 94 21 73 23.5 Legacy Golf Club (White) 69.30 119 31 Edit 10/10/10 20.2 46/41 87 23 64 16.9 Blue Rock Springs East (White) 68.30 125 32 Edit 09/19/10 20.9 43/40 83 21 62 15.6 Earl Fry Golf Course (White) 67.50 112 33 Edit 08/20/10 21.1 63/50 113 22 91 41.0 Sunnyvale Golf Course (Blue) 70.20 118 34 Edit 08/01/10 21.1 43/47 90 22 68 21.9 Poplar Creek (Gold Re-Route) 67.90 114 35 Edit 07/28/10 21.4 42/46 88 20 68 24.2 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 36 Edit 07/07/10 21.4 43/44 87 20 67 23.1 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 37 Edit 06/20/10 21.5 51/50 101 23 78 31.2 Lake Chabot Municipal (White) 68.10 119 38 Edit 05/23/10 21.5 46/50 96 25 71 22.3 Summitpointe Golf Club (Middle) 70.10 131 39 Edit 05/05/10 21.9 43/44 87 23 64 16.6 Sharp Park (Men's White) 70.00 116 40 Edit 04/18/10 22.4 50/49 99 24 75 28.9 Tilden Park Golf Course (White) 68.30 120 41 Edit 04/14/10 22.4 44/43 87 22 65 23.1 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 42 Edit 03/30/10 22.9 40/47 87 21 66 23.1 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 43 Edit 03/21/10 22.1 51/46 97 23 74 25.7 Monarch Bay (MEMBER) 69.50 121 44 Edit 03/10/10 21.6 47/43 90 20 70 26.3 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 45 Edit 02/24/10 21.0 43/45 88 20 68 24.2 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 46 Edit 02/22/10 20.8 43/45 88 19 69 24.2 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 47 Edit 02/10/10 20.2 43/45 88 19 69 24.2 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 48 Edit 12/26/09 19.6 45/51 96 18 78 32.6 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 49 Edit 11/28/09 18.9 47/48 95 17 78 31.6 Lincoln Park (White) 65.10 107 50 Edit 11/14/09 18.0 52/62 114 19 95 33.0 Legacy Golf Club (White) 69.30 119

[Slice of Life]

Wow, that is quite a variety of scores.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Spyder

That's the best question to ask. I'm hoping I get it straightened out with Erik or Mike this Saturday. If not, I'll be teeing off with 3W or 4i all day. The sad part is, I've shot 80 on a 6,600 yard course using nothing but irons. I've also shot 100 using driver on courses that were 6,300 yards and shot <80 on both with driver before as well. My 4i is usually good for 210-220 so it's not detrimental to tee off with it. The problem is my brain takes over and mocks my common sense and I give in and try to get those additional 60-70 yards. That's when stuff happens... good or bad.

Originally Posted by mad max

I do think we play differently.  I can hit the ball a long way for my skill level.  I go for it when I shouldn't but sometimes it works out and sometimes it does not.  Last round, one that I didn't enter the score by hole I had 2 12's and a 10.  I think I still had at least 4 pars but 10's and 12's will kill your score.  My HC and especially my anti HC would be higher if it wasn't for ESC

I think I'm starting to see the light.  Y'all hit a long ball that seems to sometimes get you in trouble but also results in a bunch of pars.  I play the exact opposite.  I don't even carry a driver.  Almost all of my holes are:

1. Tee to fairway

2. Fairway to chipping distance

3. Chip on to green

4. 2 putt

I hit a decent amount of 4-irons off the tee (and I wish that meant 220 like Spyder), mostly hybrids - and if it is wide open, I'll pull out the big dog (which is a 3-wood.  You'd probably call it the small dog. Ha!).  I had to take driver out of the bag because I wanted to find a way to get the score down.  But more than anything, I found that mentally it really messed with my game to start off so many holes at a deficit - that is to say in the woods or some kind of trouble.  It became demoralizing, it affected my play on other parts of the course, and I was trying a lot of 'miracle' shots to try to get it back - which of course just made things worse.

3-wood has been going pretty well for me lately though. I promised myself that when it got really consistent, I'd start practicing driver again.  It is just about time to start. I'll look forward to being able to use it again.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I think I'm starting to see the light.  Y'all hit a long ball that seems to sometimes get you in trouble but also results in a bunch of pars.  I play the exact opposite.  I don't even carry a driver.  Almost all of my holes are:

1. Tee to fairway

2. Fairway to chipping distance

3. Chip on to green

4. 2 putt

I hit a decent amount of 4-irons off the tee (and I wish that meant 220 like Spyder), mostly hybrids - and if it is wide open, I'll pull out the big dog (which is a 3-wood.  You'd probably call it the small dog. Ha!).  I had to take driver out of the bag because I wanted to find a way to get the score down.  But more than anything, I found that mentally it really messed with my game to start off so many holes at a deficit - that is to say in the woods or some kind of trouble.  It became demoralizing, it affected my play on other parts of the course, and I was trying a lot of 'miracle' shots to try to get it back - which of course just made things worse.

3-wood has been going pretty well for me lately though. I promised myself that when it got really consistent, I'd start practicing driver again.  It is just about time to start. I'll look forward to being able to use it again.

Yeah, I'm gonna try to explore this strategy. Keep the driver in the bag unless it's a par 5, or long par 4 without a ton of trouble.

If it's wide open on one side. I'll whack away, because worst case I'm just in the rough...but if it's tight with OB on both sides, I'm gonna hit my 2 iron hybrid.