Placing my ball on a fairway pitch mark to tee up ball. Wrong or right?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

....The Local Rule should read "place it  on a spot"  Spot meaning ''a spot on the fairway"...

But it doesn't. It simply says "he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green"

Some years ago I received this reply from the R&A;

"If there's an LI or a movable obstruction within the distance, the player may place the ball on it."

The question came up in a discussion at one of the rules workshops I attended, with the same answer.  As long as you are placing the ball within the prescribed limits, there is no restriction as to what the ball may be placed on.

If I have any issue with the process at all, it's with that local rule in general.  It's the only time I can think of under the rules where the player gets to pick a spot to place the ball on.  In all other such procedures, the ball must be placed on a specific spot - such as the spot from which it was lifted, or the spot where it first hit the course when dropped.

I've always thought that the PGA Tour was much too liberal in invoking this LR, and much too loose in allowing one clublength for the placement area.  My men's club only invoked the preferred lies local rule if the course was truly a mess, or if we played a tournament within a week after fairway aeration.  Just because the course was a bit soft wasn't sufficient justification (mud balls were just considered part of the game - learn to deal with it).   On the very rare occasions when the rule was in play, we got one scorecard width (about a 5 inch semicircle) from the spot where the ball came to rest.

[David in FL]

Personal opinion tends to result in more rules infractions and incorrect rulings than just about anything I can think of......

Of course, that's just my personal opinion. ;-)

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just because the course was a bit soft wasn't sufficient justification (mud balls were just considered part of the game - learn to deal with it).  .

Which is why the underutilised Local Rule below was introduced.

b. Cleaning Ball

Conditions, such as extreme wetness causing significant amounts of mud to adhere to the ball, may be such that permission to lift, clean and replace the ball would be appropriate. In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“(Specify area) a ball may be lifted, cleaned and replaced without penalty.

Note: The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under this Local Rule – see Rule 20-1 .

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.”

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

By me......This is my personal opinion..........It is not recommended ............

Personal opinion tends to result in more rules infractions and incorrect rulings than just about anything I can think of......

Of course, that's just my personal opinion.

My opinion was not to go down the avenue of placing the ball on a discarded tee, even if the rule allows it.

.This was the point I was trying to make.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

My opinion was not to go down the avenue of placing the ball on a discarded tee, even if the rule allows it.

.This was the point I was trying to make.

I would assume everybody understood that. But why should someone not use rules to their advantage just because you would not recommend it? Most likely it would go like, "WOW guys! My ball ended next to an old tee sticking from ground. Gee I am lucky. I will place on that tee." What would you recommend him to do?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by luu5

I would assume everybody understood that. But why should someone not use rules to their advantage just because you would not recommend it? Most likely it would go like, "WOW guys! My ball ended next to an old tee sticking from ground. Gee I am lucky. I will place on that tee." What would you recommend him to do?

Nothing I hope, unless they were partners. A recommendation would be advice.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Nothing I hope, unless they were partners. A recommendation would be advice.

Not if he just stated that it is not recommended to place a ball on the tee. That would only be a piece of general information, although incorrect.

[Asheville]

Information on the Rules is not advice; misinformation on the Rules might be.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Nothing I hope, unless they were partners. A recommendation would be advice.

Not if he just stated that it is not recommended to place a ball on the tee. That would only be a piece of general information, although incorrect.

That which I put in bold is advice , and not allowed.  By saying that, you could well influence the way he plays his stroke, and that is prohibited.  It is not general information, it is an opinion , regardless of whether it's your opinion or you are just parroting something you heard.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That which I put in bold is advice, and not allowed.  By saying that, you could well influence the way he plays his stroke, and that is prohibited.  It is not general information, it is an opinion, regardless of whether it's your opinion or you are just parroting something you heard.

I see that differently. IMO he is referring to a Rule, although such Rule does not exist or reads differently. Information on the Rules is not advice, even if the information is not correct.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That which I put in bold is advice, and not allowed.  By saying that, you could well influence the way he plays his stroke, and that is prohibited.  It is not general information, it is an opinion, regardless of whether it's your opinion or you are just parroting something you heard.

I see that differently. IMO he is referring to a Rule, although such Rule does not exist or reads differently. Information on the Rules is not advice, even if the information is not correct.

What rule recommends that he not use a tee?  It's not the fact that he could use the tee, it's the fact  that you are suggesting a recommendation (even a negative recommendation) that makes it advice.  The fact that you think it's a rule has no bearing if it is in fact not a rule.  The rules don't recommend, they define procedures. If your suggestion was allowed, someone who is ignorant of the rules could be offering advice all day long and always have that escape. You simply can't do that if you are playing by the rules.  Try it sometime in front of a rules official, and I guarantee you will have 2 strokes added to your score.

Information would be something to the effect that "under the rules you are allowed to use that tee which someone left stuck in the ground in your placement area."  Not allowed would be to state that "The rules recommend that you don't use that tee."  No matter how you say it, you are offering an opinion in which is couched a suggestion which could influence your fellow competitor's play of his next stroke.  It doesn't matter whether you are ignorant of the rules or not - all that matters is that you have made a suggestion that could affect his next stroke.

This dispute may have come up because English is not your first language.  It means something different depending on how it is phrased.

What you could say is "While it is allowed under the rules, there is no recommendation in the rules about using that tee."

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I see that differently. IMO he is referring to a Rule, although such Rule does not exist or reads differently. Information on the Rules is not advice, even if the information is not correct.

I don't think anyone would interpret a statement that "it is not recommended . . ." as being a statement of the rules.  IT is not recommended.  By whom?  The rules make rules, not recommendations.  So if it is not a rules issue it is a playing issue and therefore advice.

[Rulesman]

Perhaps people would be good enough to read what I wrote in response to the question

What would you recommend him to do?

But just in case, I'll repeat it.

Nothing I hope, unless they were partners. A recommendation would be advice.

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by luu5

I would assume everybody understood that. But why should someone not use rules to their advantage just because you would not recommend it? Most likely it would go like, "WOW guys! My ball ended next to an old tee sticking from ground. Gee I am lucky. I will place on that tee." What would you recommend him to do?

I

Myself,  being the marker, I am not verbally recommending anything..........It is a self recommendation. , With a club in my hand, will I or won't I..........No body is around and I landed next to a one inch tee. I will put the ball on the tee and use my driver...............Marker looking from one hundred yards thinks, what he up to?   Gee you might be lucky, maybe too lucky............................long run not worth it..........

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

I would assume everybody understood that. But why should someone not use rules to their advantage just because you would not recommend it? Most likely it would go like, "WOW guys! My ball ended next to an old tee sticking from ground. Gee I am lucky. I will place on that tee." What would you recommend him to do?

I

Myself,  being the marker, I am not verbally recommending anything..........It is a self recommendation. , With a club in my hand, will I or won't I..........No body is around and I landed next to a one inch tee. I will put the ball on the tee and use my driver...............Marker looking from one hundred yards thinks, what he up to?   Gee you might be lucky, maybe too lucky............................long run not worth it..........

You realize that we are talking about doing this only when playing under the preferred lies local rule, not just a normal round?  Nobody is saying that you should pick your ball up and put it on a tee anytime you get the chance.

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You realize that we are talking about doing this only when playing under the preferred lies local rule, not just a normal round?  Nobody is saying that you should pick your ball up and put it on a tee anytime you get the chance.

yes...............................I am talking about preferred lies...............Playing off discarded tees, playing preferred lies...............

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You realize that we are talking about doing this only when playing under the preferred lies local rule, not just a normal round?  Nobody is saying that you should pick your ball up and put it on a tee anytime you get the chance.

yes...............................I am talking about preferred lies...............Playing off discarded tees, playing preferred lies...............

Then why worry about your marker's reaction?

[thescarecrow]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Then why worry about your marker's reaction?

Look I will spell it out...............The marker would assume you are CHEATING ......I have had played many  rounds with markers that I do not know, if we were playing the first hole and he saw my ball on a tee........Well?      What would you think?   Do you understand where I am coming from.?  That is why I am saying Not recommended.         Perception.