How difficult are PGA Tour course setups?

[Nosevi]

Look at the US Open. There are amateurs who are hanging with the the pro's in arguably the hardest set up in golf. I mean, if they were that good, then Amateurs wouldn't have a shot at even scratching the top 50. There's usually a few that make it to the weekend.

Good point, the same happens in our Open. (You know -  "The Open", not the British Open or whatever people over there call it ......... just kidding obviously :) )

I mentioned Justin Rose - as an Amateur off plus 3 he didn't only make the cut, he tied for 4th place in The (British) Open. Ok this is a tad 'unusual' and he then kinda struggled once he became a pro for the first year but even he says that was purely psychological.

The pros are on average about 5 shots a round better than a scratch player. So lets call it over 18, 1 less putts, a couple more up and downs, hit the green in reg one more time and hit the fairway one more time (apart from at Riviera where it made *&^%*& all difference.....) That's the difference. it's a lot at that level, but that's because scratch players are already pretty good.

[MS256]

Look at the US Open. There are amateurs who are hanging with the the pro's in arguably the hardest set up in golf. I mean, if they were that good, then Amateurs wouldn't have a shot at even scratching the top 50. There's usually a few that make it to the weekend.

Yeah, the difference between the guys on the PGA Tour and the guys that aren't quite good enough to be there isn't obvious at all. We have a local guy that had a couple of decent finishes on the Nationwide Tour, won a couple of State Ams, played in at least one US Open, and finished one stroke from being on the PGA Tour at a Q-School. He plays in the daily game at the local country club fairly often and, although he is the best player out there, it's not completely obvious and he doesn't always win.

He isn't the longest player in that game but is the most consistent player in that game.

When he is hitting balls on the range it's about like if most of us took our best shots and then repeated them time after time.

[Nosevi]

The rough in your picture looks pretty tame, I could have found all my balls there.

......

Off to the right, that's rough.

End of the winter, mate. It'll be up to your waist by summer. I know, I'm intimately familiar with it :)

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

The rough in your picture looks pretty tame, I could have found all my balls there.

......

Off to the right, that's rough.

End of the winter, mate. It'll be up to your waist by summer. I know, I'm intimately familiar with it :)

Sure, but the rough gets even worse here too. If you don't make the fairway, the ball literally rolls off the side into the marsh where it's a "red stake", even if you could hit it (e.g., not under mud and water), it still costs you a stroke.

Many of the courses in the inland empire are used for qualifiers and local competitions. The people who make scratch here are pretty good players like the ones you are alluding. I'm sure at a UK '3' handicap, you would enjoy these courses as well. I have also played a course a few miles away called Hidden Valley, which is way harder than Angeles National (a Jack Nicklaus course), and I agree that anyone making scratch there would be pretty good as well.

I think these courses are used for qualifiers, so they are pretty tough like your home course.

This one was the one we played yesterday. We go on some pretty challenging courses on these So. Cal. outings. Needed to take lessons from @mvmac just to be able to play them and score under 100 on them.

[hopefulhacker]

I don't know how the amateur that qualifies for the Majors etc comes into the Scratch v Tour Pro debate. They are not a "scratch golfer" in the "floats around 0.0" sense... These guys are some of the best amateurs in the world. I thought this was about, how the club golfer that floats around 0 would do on a Tour Event. For sure the leading Amateurs in the World are going to make the odd cut at Tour events or Majors, but the guys the make the cut are rare. 1 out of 6 in the masters 2013 made the cut. The lad that made the cut was 12 over... Harsh enough penalty included. Those 6 guys are light years ahead of Joe at 0.0. They probably are between +3 and +4 themselves. I don't know how anyone can claim that very few pros are at +5, +6... Proof is in the pudding.

[Lihu]

I don't know how the amateur that qualifies for the Majors etc comes into the Scratch v Tour Pro debate. They are not a "scratch golfer" in the "floats around 0.0" sense... These guys are some of the best amateurs in the world. I thought this was about, how the club golfer that floats around 0 would do on a Tour Event. For sure the leading Amateurs in the World are going to make the odd cut at Tour events or Majors, but the guys the make the cut are rare. 1 out of 6 in the masters 2013 made the cut. The lad that made the cut was 12 over... Harsh enough penalty included. Those 6 guys are light years ahead of Joe at 0.0. They probably are between +3 and +4 themselves. I don't know how anyone can claim that very few pros are at +5, +6... Proof is in the pudding.

I though the topic was about the courses and the setups for the courses under TP conditions.

The OP mentioned that he should do fairly well on a course like the Riviera under the TP conditions. I tend to agree that he would do reasonably well, and it seems like a typical scratch golfer (which we estimated at something like 6000 players total in another thread) should do okay.

IMO, the difference between a TP and the non-competing amateur, is the number of times that golfer can keep up that level of performance.

The only thing I differed in opinion about was the "rough" on his home course being too rough. We have some pretty "rough" courses around here. Maybe even "rougher" than the Riviera CC?

[Nosevi]

But isn't that what I started this thread with? Miss the fairway on my course and you're in waist high grass, your course and you're in a swamp. Miss at Riviera and your on slightly less convenient shortish grass. That has to make a difference.

[Lihu]

But isn't that what I started this thread with? Miss the fairway on my course and you're in waist high grass, your course and you're in a swamp. Miss at Riviera and your on slightly less convenient shortish grass. That has to make a difference.

It does for me, but I am a higher handicap golfer.

[Nosevi]

Lihu, I was kidding about the rough at my course because it's all died down but still on a different planet to at Riviera where it was non-existant.

[hopefulhacker]

I though the topic was about the courses and the setups for the courses under TP conditions. The OP mentioned that he should do fairly well on a course like the Riviera under the TP conditions. I tend to agree that he would do reasonably well, and it seems like a typical scratch golfer (which we estimated at something like 6000 players total in another thread) should do okay. IMO, the difference between a TP and the non-competing amateur, is the number of times that golfer can keep up that level of performance. The only thing I differed in opinion about was the "rough" on his home course being too rough. We have some pretty "rough" courses around here. Maybe even "rougher" than the Riviera CC?

I asked the OP what exactly the topic was or questions being asked were. He kindly replied in Post #29. Two main questions were given: 1. Is the average course set up harder than a Tour event. (I gave my opinion on that) 2. What would a scratch golfer score at a tour event. OP rightly pointed out that the definition of a scratch golfer can be confused. I don't think anyone classes the 6 amateurs that played the Masters as "scratch golfers". "leading amateurs in the world" is a little more apt. Most people would agree scratch is someone floating around 0.0. Anyone higher than that (consistently) is a PLUS golfer to me. Sorry for bringing a downer to some people's dreams, but I would say that the from to's below all represent similar jumps in standard Mid - High HC -> Scratch (0.0) Scratch -> Leading World Amateur Leading AM -> Top 50 Pro

[Nosevi]

Wouldn't really debate that but I would add: Leading Amateur = some pros. Has to or no one would ever turn pro.

[hopefulhacker]

Wouldn't really debate that but I would add: Leading Amateur = some pros. Has to or no one would ever turn pro.

True that :) But "not many" of the top amateurs that turn pro ever make it to the Top 20 or even 50, let alone do it within a year or two. Some gifted exceptions every once in a while. It normally takes a good few years to go Top Am -> Q School/web.com -> PGA/Euro Tour -> Top 20 or 50 in the world (if they ever make it to those heights... Most AMs don't.

[Nosevi]

Agreed.

[Nosevi]

Agreed.

[Bird E3]

The toughest set up of a paga course that I was lucky to play immediatly after a tourney, was Beth page black after the us open. Next time you have a slow foursome in front of you, walk 12 normal strides and that's how far wide the fairways on some of the holes were. There was only 3 feet of first cut rough lining the fairway, then immediately into the deep stuff along with fescue. Next the rough immediatly around the greens the grass would curl over your golf shoes and cover your laces of very thick green grass, maybe 5-7 inches in length. We had 3 instances where a ball was lost (and eventually found after taking a drop) , just a foot or 2 from the edge of the green. Greens were real fast, although BPB was not real undulating. I am used to 11-13 on my home course, others playing with me were not, and it showed. At the time I was playing very good golf close to scratch at my 6800 yard course. I thought I played a very good round from the tips 7340 yards with out the aid of a caddy, I shot 85 with 2 birds. But launching 3w, 5w, and hybrids from the fairways does take its toll.

At the end of the round I was exhausted, it was in the low 80s, it may have been that walk up 15. The course although long, some of the bunkers you could lose a FedEx truck inside, other were numerous to make you reconsider your shot or target line. the sight lines to the greens would often only show a ribbon of green throwing off your debth of how deep the green was. #17 was especially tough. There were lots of holes where a perfectly placed sprawling 50 year oak tree was placed again upsetting your site line for driver.

The best in the world shot even par or close to it'. I felt lucky to have shot 85, my partners shot 90-100 and they were what I considered very good golfers single digit handicappers. Playing a PGA course is one thing, course management takes on a life of its own and. I had nothing riding $$$$$ on my round one could only imagine standing over a sliding 8 footer, if you made it great, if not it would drop down into a tie with 5 others.

I played it too. It was ridicously hard. I shot a 73 on the red course the day before, which was the best score of my life, and shot a 96 on the black the next day.

[David L Yskes]

while i've never played a PGA course, I have played on a Arnold Palmer course ( Ravines in saugatuck, michigan )  and wow it was flipping tough...  The last time i played on it was in 2002??

the main difference between this course and your typical course was not so much the fairway width...  but the rough cut.....

on the Palmer course, it seriously felt like it went fairway, then knee high rough lol...   no joke i couldnt even tell you how many balls i lost, that barely rolled off the fairway into the rough and you couldnt find your ball....

it got so bad that the first time our 4 some played this course we came up with the rule that if we couldnt find the ball within 30seconds we just took a drop, no penalty which happened after hole 2 or 3 lol ...  we did this cuz we got warned for slow play....

yes at the time, we was all just a bunch of hacks on a expensive course lol...

Obviously if i played this course again, i am sure it wouldnt seem to be so bad, but that first experience was a shock to the system....

On the plus side lol...... for some reason i always seemed to be able to par or birdie the par5's on the course lol........

[RayG]

I believe, in the case of Rivera this week, you're missing an important factor. As one or two players said; the rough wasn't that bad... Except that this year there was an incredible drought in the area and the rough did not come in nearly as penal as it normally would be. That kikuyu grass is normally about as forgiving as a wad of steel wool and the fairways were hard and dry so they rolled out some incredible distances during the tournament. As a matter of fact, I would say that it played easier for the pros than it would normally for the members (in normal conditions).

[Lihu]

I believe, in the case of Rivera this week, you're missing an important factor. As one or two players said; the rough wasn't that bad... Except that this year there was an incredible drought in the area and the rough did not come in nearly as penal as it normally would be. That kikuyu grass is normally about as forgiving as a wad of steel wool and the fairways were hard and dry so they rolled out some incredible distances during the tournament. As a matter of fact, I would say that it played easier for the pros than it would normally for the members (in normal conditions).

Does this make for closer scores?