Hit Impulse and Flipping (Jim Waldron)

[ErikG15]

I know there are plenty of threads about stopping the dreaded flip at impact so I hope it's OK to start another one.  I read though a thread on another site regarding Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion.  While the thread was mainly focused on the arm motion in the back swing (which I thought was excellent), there were some tidbits about flipping the wrists at impact and it being caused by the hit impulse.  I'd like for this thread to be focused on that.

What I believe he is saying is side to side arm motion vs. up and down arm motion is what causes golfers to flip at impact.  He believes that side to side arm motion is caused by a hit impulse.  Hitting at the ball vs. swinging through the ball.  He goes on to say that to fix the hit impulse you have to see through the arm swing illusion, and clearly define wrist hinge and wrist cock.  In general, hinge is primarily done with the right wrist, and cock is primarily done with the left wrist in a right handed swing.  Both elements occur in both wrists, however these elements are more pronounced in one vs. the other.

I know that arm motion is important, but I'd like to focus on wrist action once the hands get to waist height in the downswing.  What really stood out to me was his explanation of what should happen at this point in the swing.  Lets assume that a golfer can reach this position correctly with the arms and wrists (left wrist up-cocked, right wrist backward hinged).  All the golfer needs to do at this point is down-cock the wrists and maintain the right wrist backward hinge while turning through the hitting zone.  He says that if the golfer reached this position and did not turn through the hitting zone, the aiming point for the club head would be on the ground along the toe line.  He says that all of this is compromised if there is any lateral arm movement, and that lateral arm movement should only occur well after the ball is struck.

This made a lot of sense to me because you're not forcing a wrist position, you're setting up a wrist position once you get to the top, and then maintaining it (with the exception of the down-cock).

There is a strong timing element in this (many aspects of the golf swing are), but he says that the low point can be manipulated by grip strength.  Thin contact, very slightly increase grip pressure, fat contact, very slightly decrease grip pressure.

I've had a flipping issue with my swing for quite some time, so armed with this information I gave it a shot.  In previous swing videos I'd be lucky to get to 1* forward shaft lean at impact, and after impact my LEFT wrist would be hinged backwards.  In current swing videos I'm getting about 4 to 5* of forward shaft lean at impact and I'm maintaining the right wrist hinge for approximately 6" after impact.  I went from slight fade to slight draw, and it's working for every club in my bag.  I've had about 5 or 6 range sessions since discovering this, and while it needs to be honed, it has held up better than I could have imagined.

I'm curious if anyone else has seen this, tried it, and had success (or no success).  Also curious if this makes sense to any of the instructors.

[mvmac]

Do you have any examples, pics/videos of what Waldron is talking about?

[ErikG15]

mvmac - you've actually helped me with my swing in the 'Member Swing' section of the site.  Thanks again BTW.  Lower body work is paying off, and I'll be posting new video there soon.  I need to post more, its just hard to find time.

I don't have any video or pictures of what he's talking about, but I can certainly make one.  However, I'm a little apprehensive because I don't want to step on Mr. Waldron's toes.  He did put this information on another site, so I guess its OK for public consumption.  mvmac, you are a member of the aforementioned site, as I've seen you post there but I'm not sure how often you visit.  The thread on that site I'm referring to is rather old so...

What is your gut feeling on me making a video with my interpretation of his method?  I don't know him, never met him, and he does charge a pretty penny for week long sessions.

[mvmac]

I don't have any video or pictures of what he's talking about, but I can certainly make one.  However, I'm a little apprehensive because I don't want to step on Mr. Waldron's toes.  He did put this information on another site, so I guess its OK for public consumption.  mvmac, you are a member of the aforementioned site, as I've seen you post there but I'm not sure how often you visit.  The thread on that site I'm referring to is rather old so...

What is your gut feeling on me making a video with my interpretation of his method?  I don't know him, never met him, and he does charge a pretty penny for week long sessions.

Yeah I probably have one post on wrx in the last 3 years, obviously not over there much since I'm part owner here.

I think it's fine to make a video, here would be my concerns with the validity of the method.

I know there are plenty of threads about stopping the dreaded flip at impact so I hope it's OK to start another one.  I read though a thread on another site regarding Jim Waldron's arm swing illusion.  While the thread was mainly focused on the arm motion in the back swing (which I thought was excellent), there were some tidbits about flipping the wrists at impact and it being caused by the hit impulse.  I'd like for this thread to be focused on that.

Golfers don't flip because they want to "hit" the ball, they flip because their weight isn't forward enough and the pivot isn't sequenced with the arms. We like to say "lag happens".

Strongly disagree that the reason golfers flip is because of an impulse they have. It's poor mechanics. If anything, flipping is an impulse not to hit.

I know that arm motion is important, but I'd like to focus on wrist action once the hands get to waist height in the downswing.  What really stood out to me was his explanation of what should happen at this point in the swing.

There's nothing you can consciously do by the time you get to this point in the swing. Things are happening too fast. The last position where you can maybe influence what's happening is A5, left arm parallel to the ground on the downswing.

There is a strong timing element in this (many aspects of the golf swing are), but he says that the low point can be manipulated by grip strength.  Thin contact, very slightly increase grip pressure, fat contact, very slightly decrease grip pressure.

Lots of issues with this. There are golfers with light grip pressure that hit it fat, thin, high, low and vice versa. And when does this pressure adjustment occur because the pressure doesn't stay the same throughout the swing.  So even if you're feeling light pressure, it may go back to being exactly the same on the downswing as the previous thin shot you hit.

I do like a grip that is slightly stronger, that can help with sustaining leverage. I think if the club is positioned in the hands correctly, the amount of pressure takes care of itself.

[ErikG15]

Yeah I probably have one post on wrx in the last 3 years, obviously not over there much since I'm part owner here.

I think it's fine to make a video, here would be my concerns with the validity of the method.

Golfers don't flip because they want to "hit" the ball, they flip because their weight isn't forward enough and the pivot isn't sequenced with the arms. We like to say "lag happens".

Strongly disagree that the reason golfers flip is because of an impulse they have. It's poor mechanics. If anything, flipping is an impulse not to hit.

There's nothing you can consciously do by the time you get to this point in the swing. Things are happening too fast. The last position where you can maybe influence what's happening is A5, left arm parallel to the ground on the downswing.

Lots of issues with this. There are golfers with light grip pressure that hit it fat, thin, high, low and vice versa. And when does this pressure adjustment occur because the pressure doesn't stay the same throughout the swing.  So even if you're feeling light pressure, it may go back to being exactly the same on the downswing as the previous thin shot you hit.

I do like a grip that is slightly stronger, that can help with sustaining leverage. I think if the club is positioned in the hands correctly, the amount of pressure takes care of itself.

mvmac,

All good points.  Obviously he would be able to explain it better than I could, but from what I gather he avoids attempting to explain his methods in written word because of misinterpretation, which is entirely possible in this case.  However, I'm pretty sure I did understand it correctly regardless of the vague description.

Do you believe that there is a difference between being ball focused and target focused?  Do you believe there is a difference between hitting at the ball instead of swinging through the ball?  Do you believe that a ball focus might contribute to flipping?  Is it possible to get your weight forward properly, but still flip?

I know that whats good for the goose isn't always good for the gander, but when I do this (in my minds eye) I feel like I'm aiming for a spot about 4 inches away from my toes in the 3 o'clock direction on the toe line.  Basically 4 inches from smashing my toes with the club face pointing to 12 o'clock.  When you include moving the weight forward and the pivot (if sequenced properly) this low point is in front of the ball, and the club face is now pointed to 9 o'clock down the target line.  I don't want to say that I have super coordination powers or anything, but I can absolutely retain the left wrist cock until what I perceive is the last second, I try to get the butt of the club past the ball and then down-cock but retain hinge all while transferring weight and pivoting.  I feel like I can manipulate the grip pressure as well.  In fact, if I do this, I don't have a choice but to get my weight forward and pivot or I'll be digging trenches behind the ball.

It's working for me, and I've had a hard time taming the flips.  This practically cured it.

[Bo the Golfer]

Just wondering if anyone has read up on this method or have taken lessons from Mr. Waldrom. The concept seems to make a lot of sense and so much less technical than what I seem to read day in and day out. I would love to hear any opinions/experiences with this. 

[Vinsk]

If you do a search for ‘Jim Waldron’ at the top on this site you’ll see some threads that discuss Waldron.

[Bo the Golfer]

Thank you @Vinsk

[Bo the Golfer]

So a debunked swing philosophy. Should have known. 

[dennyjones]

On 3/14/2014 at 12:32 PM, mvmac said:

Golfers don't flip because they want to "hit" the ball, they flip because their weight isn't forward enough and the pivot isn't sequenced with the arms. We like to say "lag happens".

 

Strongly disagree that the reason golfers flip is because of an impulse they have. It's poor mechanics. If anything, flipping is an impulse not to hit.

+1