Handicap Ethics Question

[cfritchie]

Edited, because I'm trying to understand what argument you are making. In earlier posts, you seemed adamant that the handicap system favored high cappers in tournament play. Now you say I can promise you the flight with 18+ handicap players had an average net score higher then the flight with 5 or less as a handicap.

That would indicate that the handicap system favors the low cappers, whose net scores would be lower on average, correct?

Early morning typo!

Higher handicap would have a lower net score! My bad!

[Lihu]

Higher handicap would have a lower net score! My bad!

Are you saying that many of the 18 handicappers in the position to get better and have a better chance of beating their handicap? Or are you saying that many 18 handicappers are sand bagging 8 handicaps?

I think a true 18 handicap would score 20+ over par and the true 5 handicap would score about 5 over par.

[Big C]

Ok thanks for clarifying. With that said, I disagree with your premise. The lower average net scores will almost always belong to the A flight. The lowest individual net scores will probably come from a higher flight, but those will be offset by the net 80's that are common amongst high cappers.

[cfritchie]

Are you saying that many of the 18 handicappers in the position to get better and have a better chance of beating their handicap? Or are you saying that many 18 handicappers are sand bagging 8 handicaps?

I think a true 18 handicap would score 20+ over par and the true 5 handicap would score about 5 over par.

What I'm saying is I've ran or participated in hundreds of tournaments...I was an assistant and only needed my oral interview years ago for my Class A. The likely hood that a 18 will go low with a net score in a tournament is and always has been greater. There are many reasons of which sandbagging, ego, being on (low handicapper has a greater room for improvement.)

In your argument if the handicap is right why do you think a high handicapper will shoot above their score and a low will always shoot their score?

What I think is human nature is human nature. I've found at the clubs I worked the high handicappers would conveniently forget to turn in low scores and low handicapper would fail to record high scores. The low handicapper tends to have a bit more ego attached to the handicap card where a lot of high handicap players who play tournaments "like" a high handicap. Does this represent every golfer..no of course it doesn't. If you were to pole players with a handicap of 5 or less I would suspect you'd never see them playing in a tournament without flights. Again, go look at the net scoring from just about any tournament. The net score of the high handicap flight will always be lower then the net score from the championship flight. But of course...this is just my opinion and experience.

[cfritchie]

left off part of a sentence...can't see how to edit my post...

[Lihu]

left off part of a sentence...can't see how to edit my post...

There's a little pencil symbol, if you catch it within 10 minutes or so.

[Golfingdad]

Are you saying that many of the 18 handicappers in the position to get better and have a better chance of beating their handicap? Or are you saying that many 18 handicappers are sand bagging 8 handicaps?

I think a true 18 handicap would score 20+ over par and the true 5 handicap would score about 5 over par.

No, I think he simply saying that the fluxuations that go along with a higher handicap favor that group en masse over the lower handicaps, even without sandbaggers.  As a 17 index, you are probably shooting low 90's most of the time, but it's not out of the realm for you to throw in a, 83 or 84 occasionally.  You know how to make pars, so when your game is "on," you can really beat your index, perhaps even throw up a net 67 or something.

A 4 handicapper is going to have a lot of trouble beating you on that day because he's probably going to have to shoot a career best (perhaps a "gross" -1 or something) to do it.

The other half of the story is that over time and in one-on-one matches, said low handicapper is going to have the advantage on you.

(The same thing happens in bowling.  It's easy for a 100 bowler to beat their handicap in one game - they throw up a turkey and a couple of spares and the 200 bowler is going to have to roll 250 to beat them.  That's a lot less likely to happen.)

[iacas]

I'd challenge you to contact 3 random clubs and look at the scoresheets from the last net event they held. I can promise you the flight with 18+ handicap players had an average net score higher then the flight with 5 or less as a handicap.

I was not talking about events. I was clearly talking about a single low-handicap player playing against a single high-handicapper. Net events with bigger fields favor a higher handicapper winning. I've said that a few times as well.

I said this fairly simply earlier (twice): http://thesandtrap.com/t/73612/handicap-ethics-question/18#post_970676 and http://thesandtrap.com/t/73612/handicap-ethics-question/18#post_970750 . The link I posted (that you quoted) also spoke to this, NOT big events with multiple high handicappers.

[rkim291968]

When my brother had 16 handicap, and I had 18, it was hard for me to beat him on head to head matches - no handicap given (or accepted).   A few years later when our handicap reversed (I got better and went to 16, and my bro to 18), it was hard for him to beat me on head to head matches.     I'd say, the lower handicap of us won about 70% of the time, at least!   Even if two strokes were given/accepted, the outcome would have been similar.   Both of us being high capp'd, we tend to have big winning margin (more than 2 strokes) on most matches.

[newtogolf]

To clarify there will be 8 golfers including me, lowest handicap is 8 highest besides me is 15.

I went out and played a round at local course today.  The greens had been aerated so putting was off, but I shot a 95, so I'm not too worried that anyone is going to think I'm a sandbagger.

[Lihu]

To clarify there will be 8 golfers including me, lowest handicap is 8 highest besides me is 15.

I went out and played a round at local course today.  The greens had been aerated so putting was off, but I shot a 95, so I'm not too worried that anyone is going to think I'm a sandbagger.

Me neither.

Have fun. . .

[rkim291968]

To clarify there will be 8 golfers including me, lowest handicap is 8 highest besides me is 15.

I went out and played a round at local course today.  The greens had been aerated so putting was off, but I shot a 95, so I'm not too worried that anyone is going to think I'm a sandbagger.

Yeah, but kick b*tt anyway.